New XCOM game

[NKF]

You could do it like they did in the Fallout games.

 

When the item slot is unoccupied, the default action is to attack with your hands (or legs for item slot #2).

 

Also, isn't there any way you could incorporate some of the stats so that they can be seen visually rather than having to look at a gauge? For example, encumberance. A soldier weighed down by too much equipment and heavy armour could be stooping and movement would be sluggish. Climbing would be hard or even impossible. Another example would be when the soldier is exhausted. He or she should appear to be breathing heavily when standing idle (movement would also be sluggish). Soldiers with paralysis damage might look a little unsteady, etc.

 

As for stats in general, you could display the relevant combat skill based on the currently selected weapon. For example, when a gun is being used, you'll see the firing accuracy of the soldier and the accuracy bonus provided by the gun and any other external accuracy modifiers (augmentation from armour, firing scopes, etc). When you select an item for throwing, the throwing accuracy is displayed. When you wield a psi-tool, your psi-skill is displayed. Any object set to 'bash' will show your melee combat skill, etc.

 

It cuts down on cluttering the screen with irrelevant information and it leaves you with more screen real estate to work with.

 

- NKF

 

P.S. Some other thoughts about unarmed skills - what about being able to grapple or push other units or objects? Say you want to push an enemy into a river, or stop them from running away (have to compare the strengths of the two units to see who pulls who), or you want to push some solid objects aside, or you need to drag an unconscious soldier to safety without having to carry him over your shoulder (primarily for weaker soldiers). Could add an interesting twist to melee combat.

[Jman4117]

Maybe treat 'encumberence' like stun is for health.

[Balou]

Well... sorry, I had to deal with other things. The generic male model is still not finished. I didn't have time to work on it last week. It's close to being done though.

I will also try to get the battlefield to work. What directx version do I need to install? (I installed the .NET Framework after directx if this is the problem)

Computer specs:

- Win98Se

- PIII 500Mhz

- 256Mb

- Geforce 2MX

I think I will upgrade sooner or later though...

 

 

When I have the battlefield working I will try to do the demo map.

 

 

hand to hand combat:

I think this is a good thing. However I think one default attack should be enough. The main attack mode will still be rifles and pistols.

I thought about a foot kick (just straight forward - weapon still equipped) and maybe one attack animation with a knife. A knife attack would be more reasonable because all special forces should have something like this with them (and why not use it then).

[Jman4117]

Punch, knife, and bayonet should be enough.

[Bulma]

Balou:

No problem, there is no rush. Just had to confirm that you are still with us...

 

About DirectX, you have installed .NET framework, so you need DirectX9 managed, there are two options, depending on which installation you have: redistributable (33MB exe), or Windows update:

a) If you have redistributable directx installation (DXSetup.exe), start it with with the /InstallManagedDX command line attribute:

Example: DXSetup.exe /InstallManagedDX

B) If you use windows update, first install DirectX9 (which you already did, so just go with managed), and then install DirectX9 Managed from windows update.

Then you should try Test.EXE from fileshare. If it work, you have succesfully installed DirectX9 Managed. There is possibility that Test.EXE work and Battlefield don`t, because of some compatibility issues.

Your Comp. spec should be enough for now...

 

Jman4117:

I am lost a bit. You use punch with empty hand, knife with knife in hand, bayonet with weapon in hand, and what about kick? No kick? Or as NKF said, to use left empty hand for kick and right for punch, or something?

 

NKF:

By showing only relevant data you`ll need another screen for overview. For example, you have unit with gun in his hand, and you want to throw granade, as you don`t see his throwing accuracy, you don`t know is there a sense of puting bomb in his hands. Finally you take granade, and find out that he has terrible throwing accuracy, and will probably die because of it. And, another screen (like in UFO or TFTD) is something we are trying to avoid.

 

We could use another (complete) information about accuracy when firing like in UFO/TFTD, or simply show nothing like in JA2 and leave it to player`s experience wondering will he hit or not.

[NKF]

I see what you're getting at. Still, it's a good idea not to cram too much information into the one interface.

 

 

Rather than a separate overview screen, how about small floating panels that you can open or close without even having to leave the tactical screen? That way you can show more detailed information about the selected soldier when you need it and can then minimise it when you want a better look at the battlefield. You'd probably be doing something similar for the inventory screen -- unless you plan to do something like they did in Jagged Alliance, which was workable.

 

---

 

As for hand-to-hand combat, using an empty slot for unarmed combat is a good idea. But whether to use the left hand for punching and the right hand for kicking may come off as a little odd ( I mean, come on, kicking with your right hand? ).

 

Looking at it logically, when you're holding a rifle, your only melee combat options are to kick or strike with the rifle butt/bayonet. When you aren't holding anything, then you can strike with both hands and feet.

 

Of course, then there's the question about one-handed weapons. You can punch with your free hand. And when wielding dual pistols, your legs are still free to kick.

 

A third button primarily for kicks might be the best solution, and just let the empty hand slots operate the soldier's fists. I suppose, it would be much less confusing that way.

 

- NKF

[Jman4117]

Maybe pistol whip an alien.

Also could just have a strike attack for each weapon. And if you have a free hand punch and have a kick as a option that is always there. Could have footwear upgrade that would allow a boot to do more damage to something like a locked door or an uncontious alien. :angel:

But quite dishonorable to kick a downed alien so lets just call that a maybe.

[Bulma]

OK, we will use third button for kicking and special attacks, and weapon slots for punching and striking with weapon: knife, bayonet, etc...

 

Jman4117, can you draw another pictures with all. You could try to draw "production quality" :angel: picture too, so I can implement it in battlefield...

 

About stats:

TU's - reduced for every action, completely regenerates on every turn

Stamina - reduced when moving, regenerates every turn in some quantity, no more move when reach zero

Firing Acc - higher number -> greater chance to hit what you aim

Throwing Acc - higher number -> greater chance to hit what you aim

Strength - less stamina reduced on moving

Psi abilities - ?????

Armour taking up several entries - Less health lose or no loss????

Health - reduced on hit, dead when reach zero

Moral - ?????

Bravery - ?????

All stats are in 0 - 100(max) range, ok?

 

Ideas?

[NKF]

Re: Armour

 

From observation, if the damage dealt to the armour is less than the armour, the armour absorbs everything and no damage is dealt. But if the damage does more than the armour, the damage is then reduced by the amount of armour and then the result is subtracted from the unit's health (I think there's also a random element thrown in somewhere that makes the armour less effective or even more effective than usual (in the case of unarmoured soldiers surviving shots in the back with heavy plasmas, for example)).

 

Oh, and the armour check only occurs after the damage multipliers for certain damage types vs. certain creatures ( *2 or /2) are applied to the bullet.

 

- NKF

[Balou]

Bulma:

Sorry to bother you with this again, but which version do I need to downlaod/install exactly?

On the microsoft directx page are three version to download:

1. DirectX 9.0a End-User Runtime (I think this is what I have running now)

2. DirectX 9.0 Software Development Kit (23mb)

3. DirectX 9.0 Redistributable for Software Developers (32mb - file name is "dx90_redist.exe" though)

Which one do I need?

I assume it is the Redistributable for Software Developers, I just want to be sure though. And will I still need to install it with the /InstallManagedDX command line?

 

About hand to hand combat:

I think we should go for a rather simple method without completely abandoning this feature (since someone will have to do all those animations).

My suggestions would be two extra buttons for melee combat, one for kicking and one for knife attack (not related to the hands in any way - much like an "override mode"). The kick would consume less APs and would be always available (could also be used to "open" some doors). The knife attack would only be available if a knife is equipped in a special slot (only for knifes), however it would take up more APs than kicking (since you need to switch weapon).

I wonder if real special forces ever need to use their bare hands in combat..., my guess would be no. And since we are talking about elite soldiers who are supposed to save the earth from an alien invasion, I think fighting with bare hands just wouldn't fit in. Also, using hands (I mean punching - everything else would graphically be very difficult to do) is really no good way of fighting because you are likely to hurt yourself (especially on some "spiky" aliens), and the damage inflicted is way behind the damage a knife could do.

I know Ja2 has this feature and there it is a good way to beat an opponent down (and to gain "strength points"), but this is only because knife attacks take up way too much APs compared to using only hands.

However, if this is something that cannot be changed later in the development (codewise I mean), we should think about adding it and enabling it at a later stage when most of the other work is done.

 

Another question I have is about the weapon system:

I understand that we will definitely have a large selection of weapons ready for the player. Basically it would be pistols (we should think about picking "PDWs" instead), shotguns, rifles (also grenade launchers) and, last but not least, energie weapons (I suggest not exactly the same weapons as the aliens, as it is in Enemy Unknown). We will also have several kinds of weapons in each section.

My question is how the animations for all the weapons will be done. We could chose to use one general "position" (the way the gun is held by the soldier/alien) for all guns of each section. However, this would require that the guns in each section have similar proportions so we don't get any hands floating in the air (or clipping through the weapons). Quake3 uses this system and there they did it via the use of "tags"(just simple triangles) which define where the weapon will be in the game. As I already said this system has some limitations and is a little tricky to work with.

A second solution would be to make only one or two versions of a soldier with some generic weapon. (this is how it is in Ja2) In my view this takes away much of the atmosphere in the game though.

Another third solution would be to limit the available weapons and link them to soldier types.

There is also the option to do different animations for all weapons, however, this would be too much work in my view (weapons x armor types x 2 (because of male/female), and then there are also the alien animations). A similar but less time consuming solution would be to limit it to only weapon types. This would be somewhat like in the first solution but with one standard weapon for each section (in the first solution all weapons would be visible in the game).

I can't think of any more solutions right now. So, how do you think we should handle this?

 

About armor and weapon damage:

I agree to what NKF suggested. However, I think every hit should also take away a bit from the stamina bar. By the way speaking of body hits, will we also have a local damage system (e.g. head shots cause more damage than a shot in the foot)?

[Bulma]

Balou:

Yes you are right, install this one:

3. DirectX 9.0 Redistributable for Software Developers (32mb - file name is "dx90_redist.exe" though)

And, yes, use /InstallManagedDX switch in command line..

And, first you need to run dx90_redist.exe without switch, because it have to decompress itself, then run setup with switch, ok?

 

End user runtime(1) is web download version, right? I think it is the same as in Windows update, and as far as I know MDX (managed extension which you need) is not included.

If 32 MB download is too much for you, try only to install DirectX9 Managed Extensions from windows update....

[Balou]

No no, 32mb is not too much. I just wanted to make sure I don't install somthing I will need to deinstall again because it's the wrong application.

 

By the way it seems like they just released the 9.0a developer version (or I just didn't see it the last time I checked).

 

Edit:

Got it installed now! The battlefield v0.11 does work. Will download the latest version now and see what I can do about that demo map.

The grid looks nice, although I think the camera is too close in (2nd story cam looks better).

I just tried the editor and it feels very comfortable and solid

Can you tell me again the dimensions of the objects, so I can add some little objects for testing in there? (preferably in max coordinates)

[Bulma]

Balou:

Yes, we`ll need to fix that camera...

Dimensions are 100x100x200 (in fact I use max coordinates in DirectX so they are the same). See my earlier posts, I wrote about creating map objects. You can also download "Objects - blocks.zip", in which you have my 3 objects in .max format. It is important to use right-handed coord system, and if you use local coordinates, pivot must be on (0,0,0). Try to scale textures to 2^n (128, 256, 512 or 1024), Panda soft export has option for it.

If you have any questions, don`t waste time, just ask...

[Balou]

Ok, I made a very simple chair to test how my models are displayed in the battlefield engine. Unfortunately, I encountered a few problems there:

 

1. The texture isn't displayed right (see picture). In max the chair uses a 128x128 .jpg texture. When I tried to export the pandasoft exporter asked me to allow converting the .jpg to an .bmp, which I accepted. Maybe the exporter somehow messed up the uvw coordinates. Otherwise I have no idea why it's not working.

 

2. The chair isn't in the right position (you can also see that in the picture). Using 'space' doesn't help. I think it is rotated by 90 degrees forward and positioned a bit too low. I tried opening your 3dmax files but since those are version5 saves I cannot open them. Maybe you can send me the files in .3ds format (or save in an older max file if there is such possibility).

 

Also, I feel a little lost because I don't what do next (meaning there is so much I could do). Before I can start to work on real xcom operatives, we will need some reference drawings and some decisions about graphical style in the game.

I could also stop working on any characters and shift over to buildings or any other map features (for the demo map). We will need someone to do the textures though.

 

https://www.kinline.de/balou/xcom/previews/editor_chair.jpg

[NKF]

Just out of general curiosity, how are the actors going to be animated?

 

Will they be animated as single meshes, frame by frame, or will you be using bone structure animation?

 

I'm still familiarising myself with 3d animation concepts, so I really don't know how hard it is to prepare the 3d meshes or how much more code is required for either animation method.

 

- NKF

[Jman4117]

I also have a question:

Are the inventory and 'hand' displays going to be sprites like in Xcom. I was wondering if I needed to work on any weapons/eqipment (not 3D like in the battlescape).

 

I will also be able to do some scetches if needbe for concepts.

[Bulma]

Balou:

Converting to .BMP is ok, but JPG is smaller (both will work). These exporters are a bit supid. You have to collapse everything from stack modifier to work properly (UVW Mapping in your example) before exporting. Also make sure you use right-handed coordinate system (deselect Left Handed Axis in Panda exporter). For block objects, attach all objects to one, and export without frames. Don`t forget to export mapping coordinates and mesh normals, and don`t use local object space (Mesh Options in Panda). Coordinate system is right handed, floor is at X-Y, a Z points up. Every block is in -50 to 50 in X/Y, and 0 to 200 in Z. I have uploaded my objects in 3DS format on workspace.

Jman will do some reference drawings for units, but for now I only need one simple character (it`s only important that it has legs and arms) so I can work on implementing animations. I am currently working on loading hierarchy and trying to figure out how to use skining/bones for animation.

So, send me one simple character, and start working on demo map, ok?

I saw two promblems with map, first, if you put chair on floor, you lose floor. If I add anouther way of adding objects I would make passable/unpassable detection (which is BTW not yet implemented more complex that it should be, so if you don`t mind, when putting chairs on floor, copy floor and add chair, ok? It`s a bit stupid, but it would simplify things a bit.

And second, passable/unpassable terrain. Every of five objects in block (left, right, top, bottom floor) should be passable or not. If floor is passable than you can`t step on that block, and if for example left is not passable, then you can`t step from that block to block on the left. Which means, that, after you do all objects, we`ll have to create table of which objects are passable, and which are not. I am still not sure what to do with doors. Creating them as two different objects would be simplest. But than again, using one object and animating door opening/closing would be much cooler

 

NKF:

I know we`ll use multiple mesh and vertex skinning. I have idea of how it`s done in DirectX, but not yet sure how it`s done in 3DS Max. I`ll tell you the details in few days after I figure it out

 

Jman4117:

I would like that HUD cover complete bottom of screen (like in most games, and in UFO/TFDT). I would do it in 1024xsomething and we`ll scale it if user select different resolution (it`s not problem in DirectX).

For now it`s only important that it have buttons, we can add texture/skin later. Ok, BMP os ok.

No, don`t do any weapons/equipment, we`ll render them in 3dsmax.

We need sketches for characters if that`s not problem, ok?

[Balou]

Bulma:

I got the texture working now (me stupid didn't check export mapping coordinates)

However, the chair is still not in the right postition (I checked your .3ds files - I only had it positioned 100units too low, all other is correct).

Unfortunately my pandasoft exporter doesn't have all the option you mentioned: There is no option to select right-handed coordinate system or local object space. (I'll upload a screenshot soon)

I guess I could just rotate it in max and then export, although it would be more comfortable to export straight away.

By the way I have to allow to convert the texture to .bmp, otherwise it says it can't load my object in battlefield editor. (Do you know if it automatically adds path names to the texture it looks for? For example my texture is not in the same folder I will export to, does it now look for the texture in the original folder or still in the same folder the .x file is in?)

 

Ok, I will finish the generic male model as soon as possible.

 

I also noticed that problem with the floor disappearing when something is placed over it. It's not really a problem at this moment though.

 

About the animation, the way I did it up to this point is assign the model to a so called "biped", then animate the biped and, when everything is finished, only export the animated meshes. I don't know what is required in the code for that to work though.

 

https://www.kinline.de/balou/xcom/previews/xexport.jpg

[Bulma]

Balou:

You have to convert textures, but you can convert them in .JPG (I guess it work). If you don`t convert, than I think it uses absolute path and don`t work. After all, maybe it`s better to use .BMP, it will be a little larger, but it will load faster.

 

It shouldn`t be any problems with your animations. I am currently exploring skinning. Send me your character as soon as possible, so I can have a real model to work on...

 

Which version of Panda Export is that? Can you download newer version?

Which version of 3DS Max are you using?

[Balou]

I just finished the hands of the male model. Only head, neck and a little bit of the upper torso still needs to be done. I'll see how much I can do today. It should be only a matter of a few days now.

 

I can't tell which version the pandasoft exporter is, it was the only one available. I think I will try the other two as well. (you said microsoft isn't good, so there is only effectware left)

I use max version 3. The plugins are from maxplugins.de. They really have a huge collection of plugins, so I think there is no other directx exporter I could try, besides the ones that I already downloaded.

 

Update:

The EffectWare Exporter doesn't really work, probably because of the texture.

I also tried rotating the chair to get a good position, however, that didn't help much. The good thing is that the legs are now pointing towards the floor, but in exchange the whole chair is now offset from the center.

To what degree does the pivot point affect how the object is displayed in the battlefield editor? Right now it is x=0,y=0 and z=3 (because of floor height of 3units).

[Bulma]

Balou:

Latest Panda exporter for eds max 3 is 4.1.something, which is very old. Any way to get newer version of 3ds max?

For Microsoft version. Original version in DirectX SDK has some bugs. There are fixes, but you have to compile it. If you have Visual studio, it should not be a problem.

Can you send me your chair, so I can see what`s wrong? Maybe this panda exporter use local coordinates or something. If it uses local coordinates, than it uses pivot as it origin, and than it`s important where it is. Otherwise it is not. I am not using location of pivot in my code, only absolute coordinates of vertices.

[Bulma]

Forum is back on-line so we can continue...

 

Balou:

I have played a little with CS and there should be no problems exporting characters to Battlefield. Just one question: Will be animations shared among characters or every character will have its own set of animations? In fact, there is not much to share as every character need at least its own vertex weights.

[Bulma]

Jman:

> How many buttons are going to be on the HUD ? I need to know to get sizing

> right. .

 

No idea really. I thought that you know that?

 

> At present I have the HUD 1024x180. It may be a little thin. Should I make

> it taller?

 

That`s already 1/4 of screen. Maybe you should try 200, but not more than that. How much of screen does UFO/TFDT take?

 

> Also, I was thinking about the stats. Maybe put the rank insignia in the

> middle and have the stats coming out from it on both sides. It would make it

> appear to be more balanced.

 

That sound`s like good idea. Make it so...

[Balou]

I've checked the Pandasoft webpage and downloaded the latest 3dmax version, unfortunately that's the same version I'm using right now.

I don't think I will upgrade my 3dmax version, there must be another way to make this work. I'll send you the chair via e-mail.

 

About the animations I think there should be custom animations for all units. After all, as you already said, the models will be very distinctive from each other and therefore should also animate differently. Maybe only for male/female versions we could re-use some animations (although I think heavy body armor should have no difference between male/female models, so there is only the standard version that needs additional animations).

[NKF]

The UFO and TFTD's interface was 320 pixels wide, and about 56 pixels high.

 

I.e: 100% screen width, 28% screen height.

 

Instead of making a fixed interface at the bottom, I've always had the idea that a floating interface would be more useful. One you can dock in any side of the screen depending on your mouse orientation, etc. But that would require a lot of work, and I suppose it might prove to be more trouble than necessary.

 

- NKF