North Korea claims to of carried out sucessful nuclear test


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#21 Locutus

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Posted 15 October 2006 - 12:45 AM

View PostDeepOne, on 14th October 2006, 9:56pm, said:

It enables and perpetuates the beasts.  I think that is the opposite of "just".

So, you justify becoming a beast, in order to remove one? And do you justify replacing the killer by becoming one?

#22 DeepOne

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Posted 15 October 2006 - 10:26 AM

View PostLocutus, on 15th October 2006, 12:45am, said:

So, you justify becoming a beast, in order to remove one? And do you justify replacing the killer by becoming one?
I think the premise of your questions is flawed.  You seem to be presuming that threats and/or violence are always wrong.  Circumstances can create the aforementioned "shades of grey".  Just as a police officer shooting an armed robber is not the same as the armed robber shooting his victims, so is forcefully opposing a brutal dictator not the same as becoming one.  It can be better to forcefully oppose evil than it is to appease and, therefore, enable it.  Or do you lament that the world is not ruled by Nazis now?

#23 Locutus

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Posted 15 October 2006 - 11:46 AM

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I think the premise of your questions is flawed.  You seem to be presuming that threats and/or violence are always wrong.  Circumstances can create the aforementioned "shades of grey".  Just as a police officer shooting an armed robber is not the same as the armed robber shooting his victims, so is forcefully opposing a brutal dictator not the same as becoming one.  It can be better to forcefully oppose evil than it is to appease and, therefore, enable it.  Or do you lament that the world is not ruled by Nazis now?

I've actually wandered many times about how much "evil" is required to counteract evil. The short story is, that there is no easy answer. Personally, I'm leaning on exploring all viable alternatives, to the point of leniancy. Each one of us, has to draw the line between, overeacting to a perceived threat and the just being passive. However, the higher the "stakes" (i.e. population envolved) the more cautious one must be to the use of violence.

And since we're giving examples, let me ask you this? How comparable is the police officer and robber example, to the one where a country proposes to put an end to another country's nuclear program, by drawing plans that focus around the use of tactical nukes?

#24 Accounting Troll

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Posted 15 October 2006 - 04:04 PM

That's a difficult question: the suffering and death that the US and its allies will cause if they use military force (maybe even nuclear weapons) has to be balanced against the potential for suffering and death if North Korea is allowed to continue with its nuclear programme.

I'm hoping that the UN sanctions will be enough to topple North Korea's current regime, or at least force it to back down, but I believe that if sanctions don't work, military force would be justified in order to stop North Korea for the following reasons:

North Korea's regime has a proven track record of showing callous disregard to the welfare of its citizens.  The Mutually Assured Destruction doctrine is based on the assumption that all sides with nuclear weapons care about the welfare of their own citizens - North Korea's government has yet to demonstrate any interest in the welfare of its citizens.

It is highly unlikely that the suffering that we would inflict on the North Korean people could be as bad as the suffering their own government inflicts on them.

#25 Crazy Gringo

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 08:10 AM

This discussion reminds me of Friedrich Nietzsche's

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He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
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#26 Zombie

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 01:03 AM

Well, if any of you have been watching the news lately, North Korea is at it again on the nuclear front: clicky. This time it appears the bomb went off properly and came close to it's expected yield. (Recall that the previous test was deemed a failure since the yield was so low - some have speculated that the explosive charges needed to create the compression necessary to start the runaway nuclear reaction didn't go off simultaneously which curtailed the yield).

North Korea warned the UN not to impose sanctions on them, and I tend to agree with North Korea in this instance. See, the government takes it's share first and whatever is left over is given to the people. If you block trades and stuff, the government is still taking it's usual cut which means less for the citizens.

Not sure what can be done at the moment to resolve the situation, but things are not looking good. :)

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#27 FullAuto

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 01:14 AM

"Fancy a Korea (career) in the armed forces?" Is currently doing the rounds here in the UK.

Last I heard, the US did say they would take action if North Korea didn't behave.  IIRC the South Koreans are considerably outnumbered in terms of conventional forces, though my guess would be SK has the better kit.  But I suppose if NK kicks off, SK only has to defend until supporting forces turn up.  US, UK, Ozzie, there were loads in the first one, quite a few might turn up for the rematch.

But will China weigh in on the side of NK again?

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#28 Zombie

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 02:30 AM

The US isn't doing anything yet until the UN finishes talks. But we'll probably agree to the sanctions. The Us has pledged to defend South Korea at all costs since the North has never made peace with the US or the South. So if N/S relations start to turn really sour (invasion, or gasp, nuclear strike), you can bet the US will be right there, maybe precipitating a WWIII. :)

Luckily, it seems China is going to be siding with the South, so if anything should happen it'll be first to respond. :)

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JellyfishGreen said:

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!

#29 Thorondor

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 09:30 AM

China's intervention would almost be a no-brainer. It's on their doorstep, so it's only natural they should do the neighbourly thing... :)

Except, kidding aside, once they went in you'd be hard-pressed not to think of the consequences. Namely, they might want to stay for an extended vacation...

::

The whole thing is stupid, really. Hunger is a very real issue in NK but it's ok for the regime to hollowly parade its "might" by spending on bombs? Not to mention that there's nothing lousier for an economy than war.

No doubt a great deal many people there only wish their lives could be a little less miserable...

#30 FullAuto

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 07:04 PM

I'm sure there were a few people below the poverty line when nukes were being developed in the US and European countries, but it does seem to be a very different level of deprivation.

It seems that NK sees nukes as absolutely vital.  And with Korea not being particularly massive, that means they can hit anywhere in South Korea, certainly Seoul, which is rather populous.  Do we know if South Korea has any anti-ballistic missile weapons in place (perhaps bought/loaned from the US)?

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#31 Zombie

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 12:59 AM

View PostFullAuto, on 1st June 2009, 2:04pm, said:

It seems that NK sees nukes as absolutely vital.  And with Korea not being particularly massive, that means they can hit anywhere in South Korea, certainly Seoul, which is rather populous.  Do we know if South Korea has any anti-ballistic missile weapons in place (perhaps bought/loaned from the US)?
Have no idea, but you would think that the US gave them a good deal on some Patriot missiles. I couldn't see the US government going to war for a country and then letting it fend for itself without some economic/military aid. (Compare this to Iraq though). :)

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JellyfishGreen said:

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!

#32 Matri

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 10:00 AM

You know, I think I've finally figured out how North Korea managed to get away with this for so long: Link
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#33 FullAuto

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 06:18 PM

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