Mass Effect

[Space Voyager]

It's too bad, though. I felt Mass Effect, while a fantastic game, took a giant step backwards on the RPG front. I hope they recognize this and do a better job in their sequel.

In what way?

[Strong Bob]

In prior games made by Bioware, there was a greater level of actual roleplay involvement. Looking back at games like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights, you'll notice that the roleplay element is substantially deeper, and the choices and dialogue options you choose have a deeper impact on how the game evolves by the end.

 

In Mass Effect, the majority of the choices are simply "Good" and "Bad". This is reliant on whether or picked a conversation choice on the top or bottom of the radial dialogue menu. On top of that, to make things worse, the dialogue options are sometimes either a case of "Russian Roulette" (Where a dialogue option will be extremely vague. IE: In one case one of your dialogue options says "Sigh", but if you choose it, Shepard will anounce: "I should kill the both of you!") or just redundant to being nigh insulting. (In another case there are three, total, dialogue options. They are "What?", "Huh?" and "...". Each result in Shepard saying the exact same thing, complete with the exact same results in every way.) Another thing I find annoying, is that sometimes there are clearly good and evil choices, marked by blue and red options respectively, that both result in the exact same response, despite the fact Shepard says something completely different in each choice. The only difference is that you recieve either Paragon or Renegade points.

 

At no point in the game are there truly difficult choices to make. Look at games like Neverwinter Nights or Fallout. In those games, sometimes just saying the wrong thing would have dire consequences. In Mass Effect, there is never such a problem. Every dialogue choice you make, the worst that could happen is that you miss the opportunity for extra money, items, or experience. No real ramifications. (The one and ONLY times I notice this is different, is during the romance plots. But those choices tend to be obvious as hell. Even being a little bit of a dick to your romance won't cause any problems, so long as you choose an apologetic response.)

 

Even Bioware's Knights of the Old Republic suffered from this, but not quite as much. At least it didn't have the "Russian Roulette" dialogue.

 

However, the one part of the game where I genuinely WISH there was a Russian Roulette kind of choice, is (SPOILER) when you're forced to choose which party member to die. This wasn't a real flaw, but it would've been 10 times better for the roleplaying value, if a party member died because of the actions you had taken throughout the game, not because you actively chose that one...(End SPOILER) An example of this can be found in both Fallout and NEverwinter Nights 1 and 2, where your roleplaying choices affected the fates of your party members in more unseen and realistic ways.

 

Not saying Mass Effect is bad. Just not quite the RPG Bioware tends to make. I am being optimistic, and hoping that this is because Mass Effect is their first incredibly vast original franchise, and just needed to get it off the ground first.

 

The one thing that really bugged me, however. (SPOILER) The actions you make throughout the entire game have virtually no bearing on what ending you recieve, or how it plays out. The last 2 hours of the game will always be the same, every time you play it. The one thing that changes the ending is whether or not you ask Joker to save the council, just prior to fighting the final boss. And frankly, this was not the kind of game that should've had a boss battle of any kind... (End SPOILER) This is the one thing that has prevented me from replaying the game until they release the expansion for the PC.

[Azrael Strife]

We do have spoiler tags, you know

 

I agree on the dialogue options, they are really badly done, at least the dialogue itself has been entertaining enough for it not to bother me THAT MUCH, but it is noticeably crappy.

 

On another note, would it have killed them to be a bit more varied on the map design? I swear it's the fiftieth time I've entered the exact same underground base; doesn't matter whether it's an Alliance military base, a pirate base, a mercenary outpost, a listening post, an asari research lab, they all have the same architecture (i.e. wall textures, ground textures, objects laying around), and most of them have the exact same map! This makes the sidequests, as interesting and very entertaining as they are so far, feel very repetitive (despite the fact that they basically are the same sidequest with different background story, just go in, kill all enemies which are usually in the very same spots as the previous base you encountered, move to the next base, at the end possibly learn that the enemies have a main base on another previously unreachable system, go to the system, wipe out the main base, quest over).

 

Also, I don't think it'd have been too hard to throw in different weapon models, they all look alike and sound alike, they didn't even bother with different paintjobs; armors have slightly different models, but nothing too special (at least human armors)

 

Ah, and combat on board the Mako is stupidly simple, I don't even know why they bothered including it in, it's almost impossible to die while combating onboard, only time I actually suffered damage was when I simply rushed in front of one of the giant worms, for the heck of it, and its teeth just destroyed me in one attack, but that was the single time I suffered any sort of damage.

 

I hope these things are fixed in Mass Effect 2, the game sure is very entertaining and nicely done in terms of storyline, characters, and very deep background stories for everything, but the repetitiveness is starting to bother me a bit.

[Matri]

Well to be fair, the bases do appear to be pre-fabs. Still, would it kill these guys to show us some other bases? Like those designed by the other aliens? For that matter, why would these aliens insist on human-made pre-fabs anyway?

[Azrael Strife]

Well to be fair, the bases do appear to be pre-fabs. Still, would it kill these guys to show us some other bases? Like those designed by the other aliens? For that matter, why would these aliens insist on human-made pre-fabs anyway?

That's the possible in-game reason I came up with myself, but I still think it's pretty much an excuse for being lazy on behalf of the programmers, some of those bases belong to powerful groups such as Cerberus, wouldn't they have the money to have something a bit more customised? are all their needs satisfied with the standard "one entry room, small corridor to large warehouse-like room, small corridor from there that leads to two small "control" rooms" ? For the love of, just throw in a few more textures or maps!

[Strong Bob]

That's the possible in-game reason I came up with myself

 

Or rather the reason very clearly stated in the codex entry.

 

The repetitive bases never bothered me much for that reason. At the very least some bases had more to them than others. Unfortunately they all, admittedly, use the same framework. You only ever visit human bases, occasionally inhabited by other aliens, so this doesn't strike me as very bad. The story never calls for much more.

 

This goes for freighters as well, but the excuse, once again, is that you only ever encounter one chassis of freighter throughout the game. (This can be observed when scanning the freighter beforehand)

 

Also, I don't think it'd have been too hard to throw in different weapon models

 

Look at your guns. Their models change drastically depending on their make. However, two different guns of the same make will look the same. The Avenger I and Avenger IX will have no difference whatsoever. However the Edge and Stilleto pistols have very little resemblance, and different paintjobs. Ranging from silver to dark blue to a blood red, your guns DO change. Are you playing the PC version? It's possible, though I might be wrong, that if you have the graphics settings turned down, all your guns are defaulted to a single model and texture.

 

Even if they were as uniform as you claimed, I personally don't feel that textures and graphics make a game.

 

Ah, and combat on board the Mako is stupidly simple, I don't even know why they bothered including it in, it's almost impossible to die while combating onboard, only time I actually suffered damage was when I simply rushed in front of one of the giant worms, for the heck of it, and its teeth just destroyed me in one attack, but that was the single time I suffered any sort of damage.

 

I agree with this. The interface for the Mako belongs in games like Half Life, where mindless shooting and exploding is acceptable. It was so frustrating holding down the "W" key moving that thing to the next destination, only to snipe every enemy from 2 miles away with an incendiary cannon. I would've prefered the snipe option removed and have the vehicle function more like the Warthog from Halo, at least then it would be interesting to see your party members use the cannon. (Perhaps differently, depending on who is manning it.)

 

However, with all this, I feel Mass Effect is an RPG and it's meat should be in the roleplaying aspect, not it's graphics or combat system. And while it's roleplaying is superior to other console games (Like Final Fantasy) it falls short of what Bioware's previous games are expected to have. This was a step backwards, and it actually kinda scares me. I'll remain optimistic however, as this was a brand new venture for these guys.

 

Seriously, did anybody get any more dialogue options with Doctor Chakwas after the prologue? She's there the whole game, mentioned frequently, but no new conversation ever happens with her... Same goes with the XO Navigator Presly and the Chief Engineer. No new dialogue after the prologue, yet they're there the whole game. What about Joker? It wasn't so bad with him, because he was more involved with cutscenes, but by the end of the game he has the same dialogue options as directly after the prologue.

[Azrael Strife]

Or rather the reason very clearly stated in the codex entry.

 

The repetitive bases never bothered me much for that reason. At the very least some bases had more to them than others. Unfortunately they all, admittedly, use the same framework. You only ever visit human bases, occasionally inhabited by other aliens, so this doesn't strike me as very bad. The story never calls for much more.

 

Whoops. Yet, I haven't found any codex entry related to that, so I wouldn't know.

Whether the story calls for it or not is irrelevant, it's hardly any effort to make maps a bit more varied, I focus a lot on sidequests, as I feel they enhance the atmosphere immersion, so they get old pretty quick.

 

This goes for freighters as well, but the excuse, once again, is that you only ever encounter one chassis of freighter throughout the game. (This can be observed when scanning the freighter beforehand)

Read above, little to no effort to add more variety, any reasons I consider to be nothing more than excuses.

 

Yet, let it be clear, I don't feel it's a BIG game mood killer, the game is very good anyway, I just tend to look into details a lot, especially into things that are not difficult at all to do.

 

Look at your guns. Their models change drastically depending on their make. However, two different guns of the same make will look the same. The Avenger I and Avenger IX will have no difference whatsoever. However the Edge and Stilleto pistols have very little resemblance, and different paintjobs. Ranging from silver to dark blue to a blood red, your guns DO change. Are you playing the PC version? It's possible, though I might be wrong, that if you have the graphics settings turned down, all your guns are defaulted to a single model and texture.

Haven't noticed this, another whoops, I still think they all look pretty much the same, same goes for weapon sounds.

Even if they were as uniform as you claimed, I personally don't feel that textures and graphics make a game.

Unfortunately for a huge game (in terms of filesizes) as Mass Effect, you expect nice flashy graphics, as it's a RPG/action hybrid, not a true RPG (especially in this game, where the character's impact on the world is a bit dubious); I expect something a bit nicer from an action game, particularly from an XBox360 game!

[Strong Bob]

Unfortunately for a huge game (in terms of filesizes) as Mass Effect, you expect nice flashy graphics, as it's a RPG/action hybrid, not a true RPG

 

Really? I would've expected more game than flashy graphics. As in content, locale, dialogue... etc.

 

The graphics in Mass Effect are currently top of the line, beaten out only by Crysis at the moment. I'm not sure what exactly you're expecting here...

 

Haven't noticed this, another whoops, I still think they all look pretty much the same, same goes for weapon sounds.

 

*Shrug* Just take a closer look and raise the volume? I don't know, I saw the variations pretty easily. I guess it's not quite so obvious to everyone.

 

There are only so many ways you can make a gun go "blam" before you run out of tones. The only weapon that I think was obviously different was the pulse rifle. (But of course, it was useless when you got it.)

 

Read above, little to no effort to add more variety, any reasons I consider to be nothing more than excuses.

 

Then this is your chance. Mod the game and make us some good replacement maps. (I'm genuinely assuming you've experience in modding/coding games like this, and am not trying to be sarcastic. Otherwise your words are very bold and insulting to the real game developers.)

[Azrael Strife]

Really? I would've expected more game than flashy graphics. As in content, locale, dialogue... etc.

 

The graphics in Mass Effect are currently top of the line, beaten out only by Crysis at the moment. I'm not sure what exactly you're expecting here...

I've seen better graphics from Half Life 2 but that is not what I meant, I meant that for a 10GB game, I expected more models, more variety. I would expect more content from ANY game, but more content (excluding graphics) does not take 10GB in hard drive install.

Again I get the feeling you're purposely misinterpreting my words just to argue.

 

*Shrug* Just take a closer look and raise the volume? I don't know, I saw the variations pretty easily. I guess it's not quite so obvious to everyone.

Your guess is right.

 

There are only so many ways you can make a gun go "blam" before you run out of tones. The only weapon that I think was obviously different was the pulse rifle. (But of course, it was useless when you got it.)

Near the end of the game, all weapons still sound pretty much the same, weapon models, now that I look at them, look minimally different.

 

Then this is your chance. Mod the game and make us some good replacement maps. (I'm genuinely assuming you've experience in modding/coding games like this, and am not trying to be sarcastic. Otherwise your words are very bold and insulting to the real game developers.)

I buy a game, I don't want to mod it just for it to be the way it should have been (more variety, etc). Another thing, I don't have the slightest experience modding, nor I want any, I have enough things to take care of for me to waste time developing some game's maps, I play to relax, I don't really enjoy making my own maps...

 

My words very bold and insulting...? now I know you're just trying to argue for no reason. that doesn't even make any sense.

I don't see how would you see as insulting me complaining a bit (I said it wasn't even a big deal, but enough reason for me to stop doing the sidequests alltogether) for all the maps having the exact same layout and textures, but whatever, if you feel like arguing.. I can always get Kratos for ya

[Matri]

Anyone noticed the elevator music?

[Azrael Strife]

Just beat it, fantastic games, even the bosses which are relatively uncommon were very nicely done and the storyline is superb!

[Strong Bob]

Again I get the feeling you're purposely misinterpreting my words just to argue.

 

Actually, I apologize for that post. Was having a bad day and the post was much more acidic than what I intended. It's no excuse, so I won't try to exonerate myself, I'm sorry.

 

However, like I said before, I love to debate. The purpose is to incite thinking, not insult anyone. Which is why I challenged you on the guns. I could post a screenshot of the various kinds I have on my current character if you would like. It might be possible you simply haven't sampled the variety yet.

 

I've seen better graphics from Half Life 2

 

Actually, I disagree with this. The 'engine' is what is top of the line for Half Life 2, and it is absolutely fantastic. I haven't seen anything else that managed to pull off physics like Half Life 2. (Even if everything in Half Life was as light as a feather...) But I honestly can't agree that the graphics are all that much better... I thought Halo 3 beat out Half Life 2 on terms of graphics, particularly when it came to facial expressions.

 

Although the only glaring example of this with Mass Effect would be comparing the faces. In Mass Effect there is much more feeling to the eyes and skin, as opposed to Half Life 2, as that game was made when character models still look like dolls.

 

My words very bold and insulting...?

 

They were very bold and insulting, not to me, but to the developers. Read your previous post. You accused the developers of laziness, and then proceed to admit a lack of experience in that area. My post wasn't meant to insult you so much as it was to make a point that you shouldn't be insulting people if you don't really know what they go through to make the games you play. There could have been any hundreds of reasons for their decision to make maps more uniform, ranging from time constraints to maintaining low disk space, and the only one you decided it was... Was an "excuse to be lazy". That was why I was so condescending.

 

Although I am curious as to where you think I actually insulted you...

 

If that is not what you meant, I apologize for that too. But even reading your previous posts now, it sounds like you're being overly acidic, just like I was before, and insulting the developers just because the game fell short.

 

I have my own gripes with the game. And while I feel the roleplaying was a giant step backwards for the developers, I also realize this was necessary for their first venture into a large original property like this. I can only hope they grow from there.

[Matri]

I have to agree and disagree on the graphics department. It is most assuredly not beaten by Half-Life 2. The lighting, Depth Of Perception tricks, shadow effects... These were barely utilized by Half-Life 2, and not at all by Crysis. The DOP effects were used in a lesser effect in Call Of Duty 4, and the lighting & shadow effects were first utilized to maximum effect in Doom 3.

 

Mass Effect puts everything together in one well constructed package, even if every scene is scripted. But yeah, the low number of model varieties is a definite low point.

 

But seriously, has anyone else noticed the kitzschy elevator muzak?

[Strong Bob]

I never played Crysis, so I only went with word of mouth on that. >_<

 

When it came to the elevator music, the only thing I noticed was that some of the music is actually just a remix of the main Mass Effect theme. Other than that, I really didn't see anything special.

 

When it comes to model varieties, I read on the Bioware forum that they actually had twice as many character models than what actually appeared in the game. (Including Turian females and overweight humans) but they were removed only for two reasons. Disk space problems and a lack of time to implement into the game story.

 

An interesting thing I noticed on the 360 version compared to the PC version. Before installing the expansion set, the Batarian entry in the codex uses a much earlier concept drawing of what a Batarian looks like. The expansion set changes this image to the updated model they couldn't put in originally. The difference between the two images is astoundingly drastic.

 

The original Batarian image is still on the PC version.

[Matri]

Before installing the expansion set, the Batarian entry in the codex uses a much earlier concept drawing of what a Batarian looks like. The expansion set changes this image to the updated model they couldn't put in originally. The difference between the two images is astoundingly drastic.

 

The original Batarian image is still on the PC version.

 

Well, they did note this in the changelog for the 1.01 patch.

 

And muzak! You've got a super-advanced space station, created by a long-forgotten alien race, populated by countless alien species... And you're still stuck with muzak. Kinda like what Ashley says when you talk to her while in Chora's Den.

[Azrael Strife]

Sorry if I sounded overly acidic, not sure where you got this but I got a bit irritated by your post, apologies.

 

You're right on one respect, it might not be the developers fault, if they were pushed into release date they would have had very little time to add map variation to the sidequests, me calling them lazy was wrong.

 

On the graphics department, I disagree, HL2 (particularly episodes 1 and 2) feature exceptional face gestures that I definitely did not see in Mass Effect; in fact, the faces were horribly inexpressive! Half Life 2 wins here; still, I agree that the shadows and other stuff were superior in mass effect, like some motion blur when moving (that would actually be a little annoying when running in combat); but in faces? HL2 wins hands down.

[Strong Bob]

And muzak! You've got a super-advanced space station, created by a long-forgotten alien race, populated by countless alien species...

 

Why fix something that isn't broke? I thought the elevator music was rather catchy.

 

On the graphics department, I disagree, HL2 (particularly episodes 1 and 2) feature exceptional face gestures that I definitely did not see in Mass Effect; in fact, the faces were horribly inexpressive!

 

Well, like the theory I mentioned before. Are you using the PC version? You won't see these graphical features unless you have the graphics at full strength. Because, frankly, any individual, save for Half Life purists, will tell you the graphics in Mass Effect are far superior. (That's also a good 4 years of difference, however. So if you mean to take the times into effect, then you could certainly say Mass Effect may not have looked as good back in 2004. Episodes 1 and 2 use the same 4 year old engine, so by that logic, the expansions possess terrible graphics, as they haven't evolved much.) Those inexpressive faces also won Mass Effect an award for "Best Art Direction": https://masseffect.bioware.com/previewsawards/

 

Seriously, check your video settings. That might be the real culprit.

 

Now, in regards to taste, I can certainly see why most people prefer the Half Life 2 architecture. Half Life 2 is much more down to Earth and doesn't rely on sparkly "warp drive" effects and laser guns. Also the aliens do not come across as 'too human', and therefore people get a better feeling of dealing with actual aliens. Half Life 2 is not even remotely "bad" on terms of graphics, but it's also old and aging rapidly. The game environment (Which has little to do with the graphics quality) is what makes up for this, however.

 

Frankly, I realize you are a Half Life 2 fan, Azrael. Nobody will say it's a bad game, but you're giving it's graphics a bit too much credit, simply to discredit Mass Effect.

[Azrael Strife]

Good god, Strong Bob...

 

...

 

Alright, I'm going to say this just for the heck of it, but you really don't understand the concept of a friendly discussion.

 

First, I'm not a fan of Half Life 2, in fact, I don't really like the game, I am a fan of the original Half Life.

What I liked the most about Half Life 2 (particularly, as said above, in the episodes) were the facial expressions, I actually find HL2 a rather boring game, the storyline is entertaining, but the game itself is a tad too boring for my taste (Episode 2 was better at keeping me entertained, mind you).

I am using the same computer I used for Half Life Episode 2 (and previous) for playing Mass Effect (yes, yes... PC version, if it wasn't obvious by now). No, the facial expressions sucked, the textures were often messed up (Joker looked actually like the Joker from Batman, the jaw texture would separate itself a bit from the rest of the head while speaking, making it look like it was about to break), the graphics were really good, but facial expressions? HL2e2 wins.

 

You proved you're the kind of person that lets his own (rather weak, apparently) opinion be influenced by awards and the like. I am not, I LIKED HL2 faces better than Mass Effect, the rest of the game's graphics are superior.

 

Again, I loved Mass Effect, and cannot wait for ME2, same as I cannot wait for HL2e3, just for storyline closure, if anything.

 

Reply if you want, but I won't read it, you've taken the fun out of having a friendly discussion to me, your constant condescending tone is very irritating, though it was fun while it was tolerable, if I keep reading your posts at some point I'll just say something I'll regret.

 

Have fun!

 

(btw, split the topic in its own Mass Effect topic)

[Strong Bob]

Azrael, I'm sorry if you're frustrated. If you don't like having someone disagree with you, then it would be wise to never state opinions. In regards to the graphics, I can easily do more than just post awards. I can post actual videos and screenshots that make you verifiably wrong in your critique of Mass Effect's graphics. (Which seemed to move from it's texture variety, to flashy special effects, narrowed down to just "facial" expressions all in one topic.) Also keep in mind, an award did not influence my statement. I played the game.

 

However, I think you proved something I was trying to mention already. Your computer simply wasn't able to handle the graphics and you had character models screwed up. This isn't a demonstration of Mass Effect's graphics at all, it's a demonstration of your video card.

 

You can walk away if you want. I was not here to insult or speak condescendingly, I have apologized for the one post where I did that already, I merely spoke to set you straight.

 

your constant condescending tone is very irritating,

 

Take a second look at your posts, Azrael. How many topics regarding Mass Effect, Halo, or whatever did you spend entire posts doing nothing but insult the game, without any analysis, merely because you didn't like it? Did you think, for one second, you could be irritating others that play those games?