Prometheus

[Space Voyager]

Finally went to see it. I'm not going to say that going to see it was a mistake as I wouldn't be able to forgive myself for not seeing it. But. Damn was I disappointed. Really, so many gaping plot holes. HUGE ones. All the whys that can not be answered with "it should remain a mystery". Things that are plain stupid. Now that I'm able to watch all the commentaries etc. I see that people had the same concerns so listing it all would be futile.

 

3D was really cool though, it wasn't irrationally abused just to show the movie is 3D. Some really nice scenes.

[Hobbes]

Put quite simply, no. There is a difference, as I pointed out in my earlier post, between taking part in a risky venture (space expedition, nuclear project) and intentionally exposing yourself to vastly increased risk (taking your helmet off on an alien world, say).

 

Really? I say the difference relies on your own personal perception of risk. I can believe that I am intentionally exposing myself to a vastly increased risk by working on a nuclear project.

 

If Slotin had just started banging lumps of fissile material together at random, hoping for the best, you would have a very fine point. However, he didn't, and nor did anyone else. Wiki even has a list of criticality accidents. None of them were caused by people going "Gone fission, LOL!" and acting like idiots.

 

Well, I see you didn't actually read the relevant part of the Wiki article on the demon core experiment:

 

"Under Slotin's unapproved protocol [Hobbes: like taking off your helmet?], the only thing preventing this was the blade of a standard flathead screwdriver, manipulated by the scientist's other hand. Slotin, who was given to bravado [or idiocy?], became the local expert, performing the test almost a dozen separate times, often in his trademark bluejeans and cowboy boots, in front of a roomful of observers. Enrico Fermi reportedly told Slotin and others they would be "dead within a year" if they continued performing it.

 

Certainly in stories written by lazy scriptwriters, yes. Not so much in those created by people who think about what they are doing. "Because other people do it." is not an excuse for anything. It speaks not just of their laziness, but of their disrespect of the audience.

 

It sure is an excuse for your favorite books and movies, because the creative process is all about taking things that already exist and combine in something new. Go check your favorite movies and books and see how much TV tropes they repeat themselves.

[FullAuto]

Really? I say the difference relies on your own personal perception of risk. I can believe that I am intentionally exposing myself to a vastly increased risk by working on a nuclear project.

 

It doesn't rely on your own perception of risk, because risk is quantifiable. The two risks are not one and the same. You can still increase your risk beyond the initial amount (e.g. climbing a mountain and then abandoning your ropes, driving a car and ignoring your seatbelt, going parachuting and not putting your parachute on).

 

became the local expert, performing the test almost a dozen separate times,

 

This is why Slotin didn't stick to the protocols, because he had done it before. Holloway had never taken off his helmet on an alien world before, so the comparison simply does not work.

 

It sure is an excuse for your favorite books and movies, because the creative process is all about taking things that already exist and combine in something new. Go check your favorite movies and books and see how much TV tropes they repeat themselves.

 

Not for my favourite books and films, it doesn't. And besides, this is simply the "Other people do it." excuse again. Because other people are bad at writing it means Lindelof can be bad too? Because other people's characters act like morons it means Lindelof's can too? Because other writers lack a knowledge of basic science, it means Lindelof can be ignorant too? Horror films like Scream openly satirised supposedly-intelligent characters making stupid decision after stupid decision more than fifteen years ago, I think it's about time Lindelof and many other writers gave their audience some credit. We are not all as stupid as the characters they write.

[Hobbes]

It doesn't rely on your own perception of risk, because risk is quantifiable.

How can you quantify risk by the way, if risk by its own nature usually involves unknown factors? Statistics? Possibly if they are available and relevant but not for this situation.

 

The two risks are not one and the same.

 

They are not but my individual perception of them would be the same. And perception is the most important issue here: it's more dangerous to drive a car than to take a plane but people are more afraid to die if they take a plane than driving a car.

 

This is why Slotin didn't stick to the protocols, because he had done it before. Holloway had never taken off his helmet on an alien world before, so the comparison simply does not work.

 

It's exactly the same situation. Slotin never had assembled a plutonium core before as well until the first experiment, just like Holloway had never taken off his helmet. And that's why the other scientists took off their helmets as well or everyone else in the room watching the plutonium experiment wasn't worried - someone had done it before.

 

To recap: I'm sorry sir, but your argument that a scientist doesn't take unnecessary risks and can't be an idiot like any other human doesn't buy into me at all.

 

Not for my favourite books and films, it doesn't.

 

Read the introduction to the Wiki on TV Tropes - it says right at the beginning: This wiki is a catalog of the tricks of the trade for writing fiction. If you go and check your favorite books and films you'll find that all of them use tropes - that's what creating is all about, like I mentioned before.

 

I'm done with this discussion... I'm going off to kill aliens that are invading Earth... wait does that story seems familiar somewhere? Maybe they ripped it off someplace?

[Azrael Strife]

It is a bit pointless to argue that characters acting like idiots is lazy writing, I agree with Hobbes that people sometimes just act stupid. Take Aliens for instance, a great movie I think we all agree, yet the great Colonial Marines make a dozen stupid mistakes throughout the movie! Leaving the Sulaco completely unmanned, for instance, how does that make any sense? what if they come across any emergency like, I don't know, being overrun by enemy forces?! Or Apone, when retreating from the Atmosphere Processor, he just stands still asking Gorman for instructions while freaking Aliens are coming out of the walls and about 3 or 4 troopers are ALREADY DEAD; had he had any common sense he would have retreated on his own at least to a safe position before asking for further instructions.

 

Anyway, plenty of characters acting stupid or dumb in pretty much any movie, since we consider Aliens to be a good movie, I don't think we can consider Prometheus a bad or lazy written one just because there are characters acting as stupid as always.

 

As for the unresolved questions; this is what disappointed me the most about this movie, so many unanswered questions. Yet, I do love Alien, and that movie is plagued with questions with absolute zero answers; yet it's considered a good movie and I love it. So I've decided to cut Prometheus some slack in that particular area and allow myself to enjoy it in the same way I enjoy Alien.

[FullAuto]

They are not but my individual perception of them would be the same.

 

So, according to you, going parachuting and jumping out of a plane without a parachute is the same risk? LOL. Right.

 

Slotin never had assembled a plutonium core before as well until the first experiment,

 

But the accident didn't occur in the first experiment. Read your own quote:

 

Slotin, who was given to bravado, became the local expert, performing the test almost a dozen separate times,

 

To recap: I'm sorry sir, but your argument that a scientist doesn't take unnecessary risks and can't be an idiot like any other human doesn't buy into me at all.

 

That's good, because I'm not selling it. That's not my argument, and has never been my argument. At least try and make an effort and understand what I'm saying instead of creating straw men. And more to the point, your argument is simply "But other people do it." again, which justifies absolutely nothing.

 

If you go and check your favorite books and films you'll find that all of them use tropes

 

And yet none of them feature scientists acting like retards! How strange!

 

It is a bit pointless to argue that characters acting like idiots is lazy writing, I agree with Hobbes that people sometimes just act stupid.

 

 

But it is lazy writing and it's not pointless. And these issues are towards the less serious end of the spectrum of problems that Prometheus has. I can understand people acting irrationally when placed under great stress, where danger is immediate. That can be acceptable. What about all the other glaring errors and nonsensical events?

 

People Doing Stupid Things For No Reason: Holloway taking off his helmet, David not knowing how to calculate a dosage, Fifield not having access to a map, everybody not batting an eye when Shaw staggers in covered in gore, the Engineers cunning plan to wait for humanity to turn up, the crew signing up for a years-long voyage without knowing where they were going and why, and so on and so forth. I really can't be bothered any more. These moronic actions are self-evident.

 

I'm not even going into the scientific errors (which are really, incredibly, utterly basic), because I seem to be the only one who studied science at school, and apparently you can have different opinions over whether an atmosphere is breathable or not. I can't help but think the survivors of that differing opinion would be of one mind.

 

I enjoyed watching Prometheus for several reasons, but it insults my intelligence on many levels. It's meant to be a science fiction film, yet features shockingly little science. So, if this is how things are done, why bother with science at all? Why bother with physics, chemistry, biology, why not just revert to superstition and lynching religious minorities because they wash a lot and so the dirty bastards must be spreading diseases?

 

I can't be the only one who wants to see characters acting believably. I can't be the only one who wants to see people in difficult situations struggling and using their intelligence, knowledge, initiative, and improvisational skills, not simply failing due to suddenly being struck idiotic by the great Plot God? Having people fall prey to impracticably convoluted plans, which only continue to work through the sheer stupidity of everyone involved is just cringeworthy. Science fiction is so much better than this. This is just "What if laypeople were scientists!" with a side-order of mental subnormality. You can see it even from very early on, when Shaw says "Because I choose to believe." which is one the most stupid things a scientist (which she supposedly is) can say. You might as well just call it a fantasy film.

 

"How did the Engineer survive breathing the poisonous air of LV223, you ask? A unicorn came down from Heaven and shot rainbows into his lungs from its horn."

 

Yes, it's far more difficult to write believable characters responding in-character to threats. That's why lazy writing is so popular.

 

[Azrael Strife]

 

But it is lazy writing and it's not pointless. And these issues are towards the less serious end of the spectrum of problems that Prometheus has. I can understand people acting irrationally when placed under great stress, where danger is immediate. That can be acceptable. What about all the other glaring errors and nonsensical events?

---

 

Like sending all the Marines into enemy territory and not leaving anyone to guard the only ship that can rescue them? or not leaving someone bar a lieutenant armed with a pistol and two unarmed civillians to guard their APC, the only vehicle that can get them out? That was pretty stupid too.

 

---

 

People Doing Stupid Things For No Reason: Holloway taking off his helmet,

 

---

 

Newt's parents going inside an obvious space craft derelict at the beginning of Aliens, on their own.

 

-------

 

"How did the Engineer survive breathing the poisonous air of LV223, you ask? A unicorn came down from Heaven and shot rainbows into his lungs from its horn."

 

---

 

Or, maybe, could it be that the Engineer had some sort of implants, allowing them to survive for short periods of time? or what if the thing left with his mask ON and just tossed it aside when it entered the ship? maybe it was running out of oxygen and, as I said, it could survive short periods of time. who knows what kind of technology they possess! Who CARES? it's sci fi and my explanation is just a plausible as your unicorn. So sayeth the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

 

I didn't take the 100% DNA match meaning that they are human, I don't recall them saying they are completely equals to us, I took it as they have the same base, but that was probably just my suspension of disbelief and me not being into genetics past school work.

 

 

 

 

Edit: I think we can safely stop using spoiler tags, if anyone reads a Prometheus thread I think it's safe to assume spoilers will be present, unlike the movie thread.

[Hobbes]

So, according to you, going parachuting and jumping out of a plane without a parachute is the same risk? LOL. Right

 

Next time, if you want to try to refute me, dont to twist my words to make wrong analogies - I was comparing taking off your helmet in an alien world or working with plutonium, both involving disregard for safeguards - which has nothing to do with what you just mentioned

 

But I guess I may have done it too mate, so no worries

 

This discussion isn't going anywhere because I've kinda realized in the past days how much Prometheus reflects some key contemporary dichotomy/question (and that's why we are still talking about it two weeks afterwards - nearly all movies we forget the next day).

 

The dichotomy is between Science/Technology, and how everything should be rational (including those science 'goofs' on the movie that FullAuto mentions) and science/tech will resolve everything (being almost a God-like authority). The other aspect is about Faith/Wonderness and not needing to have all the answers/explanations to enjoy and don't be in control.

 

And the thing is really how one side and the other can be really apart - which this discussion really brought it up. Again, regardless of who is right, I take my hat off to Ridley Scott/Lindelof because even if it was unintended on their part, the movie stands just for this discussion IMHO.

[FullAuto]

The science is utterly utterly wrong.

[Hobbes]

The science is utterly utterly wrong.

 

73% approval on rottentomatoes.com - what if our current science is wrong instead? That's exactly another question of the movie - it is set 70 years in the future and scientific theories are constantly being tested and some are discarded, like the Sun circling around Earth, eugenics, etc. What's the point of judging its future science through our current scientific knowledge?

[FullAuto]

The Flixist podcast discusses Prometheus fairly prominently.

[tomshook123]

I haven't seen this film yet, but I have heard a lot of praises about this film and I will watch it for Charlize Theron.

[Azrael Strife]

I haven't seen this film yet, but I have heard a lot of praises about this film and I will watch it for Charlize Theron.

 

Poor reason to watch this film. And you will be disappointed, she's not even the protagonist and she's -never- shown undressed.

[silencer_pl]

...she's -never- shown undressed.

 

So that is your motivation to go to the cinema?

[Azrael Strife]

So that is your motivation to go to the cinema?

That was a joke, my motivation for watching Prometheus was I enjoy Ridley Scott movies, generally, and the original Alien is among my favourite movies of all time; I didn't even know that Carlize Theron was in the movie until I watched it, and I wasn't even sure who she was anyway.

[Thorondor]

https://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81hwRTYUThL._AA1500_.jpg

[silencer_pl]

 

That was a joke, my motivation for watching Prometheus was I enjoy Ridley Scott movies, generally, and the original Alien is among my favourite movies of all time; I didn't even know that Carlize Theron was in the movie until I watched it, and I wasn't even sure who she was anyway.

 

That is not what I meant

 

P.S. I am also joking.

[Pete]

I've still not seen the film.

 

I'm not joking

[Space Voyager]

Watch this, it is better than the original.

 

[FullAuto]

Ridley Scott's doing more of these. He must be really high.

[Space Voyager]

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Let's see how he remedies the failure that was Prometheus.

[FullAuto]

I won't fund his sick habit any longer. There have been some amazing sci-fi films in recent years (The Man From Earth, Coherence, Another Earth, Ex Machina, etc) some of which have very little in the way of special effects and yet are still ten times the film Prometheus is.