Tank ammo?


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#1 infael

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Posted 19 October 2004 - 03:50 PM

I just started an Xcom game and bought a tank. When I try to load it on the skyranger, I get a msg saying I dn't habve enough ammo. I bought 10 or 20 tank shells. What's the correct ammo for the heavy tank?

TIA
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#2 Lonestar

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Posted 19 October 2004 - 03:59 PM

Somewhere aroumd 30 rounds.
I asked this same question when I first came aboard.

#3 FullAuto

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Posted 19 October 2004 - 04:18 PM

30 for the cannon tank, 8 for the rocket tank.

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#4 Bomb Bloke

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Posted 19 October 2004 - 10:34 PM

Long time no see, LoneStar!  :P
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#5 Zombie

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Posted 20 October 2004 - 01:21 AM

Yep, those ammo numbers are indeed correct. Let me add some more info about HWP's here.

Tank/Cannons cost $420,000 each, and a full load of ammo (30 rounds) cost $200 each (or $6,000 for 30). The total cost of this tank plus ammo is $426,000.

Tank/Rocket Launchers cost $480,000 each, and a full load of ammo (8 rounds) cost $3000 each (or $24,000 for 8). The total cost of this tank plus ammo is $504,000.

Tank/Laser Cannons cost $500,000 to build and ammo is free. There is a limit to the number of shots the Laser Tank has per mission: 255. This is hardly ever a factor because you will have a tough time using that many rounds up.

Hovertank/Plasmas cost $850,000 to build and its ammo is free. It also has 255 shots to use during a mission, so running out is never a problem. Just remember to have at least 5 Alien Alloys and 30 Elerium-115 on hand before you build this HWP.

Hovertank/Launchers cost $900,000 to build and a full load of ammo (8 rounds) costs $15,000 each to manufacture (or $120,000 for 8 bombs). The total cost of this tank plus ammo is $1,020,000. Remember to have at least 8 Alien Alloys and 25 Elerium-115 on hand to build the tank, plus an additional 64 Alien Alloys and 40 Elerium-115 to manufacture the 8 bombs. For everything, you need 72 Alien Alloys and 65 Elerium-115, so this requires lots of raw materials!

For the HWP's that need to be purchased, have at least $432,000 for the Tank/Cannon and $528,000 for the Tank/Rocket Launcher on hand to buy the tank plus 2 full loads of ammo. That way, when the tank returns back to base from a mission, it is ready at a moments notice. The Tank/Laser Cannon and the Hovertank/Plasma do not have ammo that needs to be purchased or built, so these are less worrisome than the others. The Hovertank/Launcher is very expensive in both money and materials to build, so make sure you have plenty of everything before you start. At least $1,140,000 in funds, 136 Alien Alloys and 105 Elerium-115 should be on hand to build the tank and 16 bombs.  :P

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JellyfishGreen said:

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!

#6 Bomb Bloke

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Posted 20 October 2004 - 01:42 AM

How many rounds can the Hovertank/Launcher fire per round?
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#7 Zombie

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Posted 20 October 2004 - 02:22 AM

Here are the number of times each tank can fire in a round:

Tank/Cannon: has 70 total TU's and a Snap Shot costs 33% and the Aimed 80%. Therefore, it can fire 3 Snap Shots or 1 Aimed Shot per round.

Tank/Rocket Launcher: has 70 total TU's and a Snap Shot costs 44% and the Aimed 74%. Therefore, it can fire 2 Snap Shots or 1 Aimed Shot per round.

Tank/Laser Cannon: has 70 total TU's and a Snap Shot costs 33% and the Aimed 74%. Therefore, it can fire 3 Snap Shots or 1 Aimed Shot per round.

Hovertank/Plasma: has 100 total TU's and a Snap Shot costs 30% and the Aimed 60%. Therefore, it can fire 3 Snap Shots or 1 Aimed Shot plus 1 Snap Shot or just one Aimed Shot per round depending on movement.

Hovertank/Launcher: has 100 total TU's and the "Aimed" Shot costs 66% (this tank does not have a Snap Shot). Therefore, it can only fire once per round.  :P

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JellyfishGreen said:

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!

#8 NKF

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Posted 20 October 2004 - 03:39 AM

And just for completeness sake:

Ammo is only necessary if you want to load the tank onto a craft and then keep it loaded on the craft.

You do not need ammo for a base defence mission. Do note, that ammo will first be drawn from storage, but if there's none left, you'll still get a full ammo magazine for all your tanks that enter the mission. If you win the mission, you get to keep any remaining ammo.

It's a bug, but you can also think of the ammo as a complimentary loan from your superiors. :P

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#9 Bomb Bloke

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Posted 20 October 2004 - 03:49 AM

Loaning people ammo sounds like a bad idea. They might decide to give it back.  :dead:
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#10 Zombie

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Posted 28 October 2004 - 06:22 AM

Cool! The PlayStation version of X-COM also gives tanks that require purchased/manufactured ammo a complimentary load to use in an X-COM base defense mission. On top of that, you get to keep any ammo that is not used during the mission. I know, NKF mentioned this in a previous post, but it is nice that the computer and PlayStation versions share this "bug". It took me almost 9 years, but I finally verified this trick!  :P

----------

Speaking of X-COM base defense missions, I found a good way to clear out Hangars that are connected together. Aliens usually heavily infest these structures, so I was trying all sorts of methods the other day to see what works. Sure, you can use Blaster Bombs to level the place, but what is the fun in that? I prefer ways that use finesse over pure force. Besides, if one strategy that works in other missions can be implemented to clear out a Hangar, you will not need to develop multiple strategies for every different scenario you encounter!

The strategy that I am referring to is called the "pincer attack". Simply put, you bring soldiers from multiple directions and converge on a single point; in this case, one or more aliens! There are no doors between Hangars, only a row of three spaces at the top, which leaves your soldiers in a vulnerable "bottleneck" if aliens spot them. Implementing the "pincer attack" would seem like a good idea. The only problem is that there are no doors or open areas at the lower end of a Hangar to successfully execute it.

There is a small 3x3 (square) room with a door opening into the lower left of a Hangar, but in order to get into this room you need to open a space in the wall behind it. Unfortunately, the only weapons that fit the bill are the Blaster Launcher and Heavy Plasma (sadly, the Hovertank/Launcher's ammo is not potent enough for this task). Once you gain access into this room, your soldiers can peek out of the door every round and see if the aliens are looking at or away from him. If the alien is looking at your guys in the room, take the soldiers near the "bottleneck" to shoot, otherwise reverse the strategy.

The walls in an X-COM base are pretty resistant to most forms attack, so the only way to make new openings is to use one (or a combination) of these two methods:

Method 1: the Blaster Launcher. Launch one bomb at the metal "skin" in the Hangar behind the room. This should remove the skin and expose the dirt behind it. A second Blaster Bomb fired at the dirt will remove the dirt as well as the inner skin leading into the entire room. Now you can get some of your soldiers into the room to use the pincer attack.

Method 2: the Heavy Plasma. Keep firing Auto-Shots at a single spot in the wall. This may require anywhere from 1-5 Auto-Shots to cut through the tough metal skin. Then, a single Auto-Shot fired at the dirt will expose the inner metal wall of the 3x3 room. Another 1-5 Auto-Shots concentrated at the metal covering should open a corridor into the room allowing the pincer attack. Warning: 11 or so Auto-Shots of a Heavy Plasma equates into an entire clip. You may need more or less, so plan on using at least one clip and possibly two!

After exposing the lower room, the pincer attack is a viable (and in my book, a preferred) method to eradicate aliens which are camped out in connected Hangars!  :(

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JellyfishGreen said:

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!

#11 Zeno

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Posted 29 October 2004 - 07:04 AM

Zombie, I like your suggestion!  I've always thought of that little room in the hangars as an annoying place aliens hide, where my soldiers must go in and risk reaction shots.  Now, I see it as an opportunity for spying on alien movements!

Your suggestion reminded me of my similar, generic tactic for dealing with aliens inside various structures...

I've noticed that opening up new holes in bases (alien and xcom), ships, terror maps, etc. tends to confuse alien movements.  They don't often walk through newly-made openings (unless they spot an xcom soldier).  Thus, peeking through these holes is a good tactic for spotting aliens--which are often facing away from a soldier.

Combining this tactic with a motion scanner is more effective (against mobile aliens).  Aliens often walk past a newly-made hole.  If soldiers stand out of sight around a corner, they can scan and wait for a passing alien.  When an alien passes, the soldier can run around the corner and usually shoot the alien in the back, often at close range.  It's even possible to run up and stun an alien if the soldier has enough time units.  

As for base defense, I sometimes use an alternative strategy for eliminating alien intrusion.  The USG recommends building a base so there is one point of entry, such that all hangars are adjacent to each other and attached to the access lift.  This allows all xcom soldiers and tanks to position themselves for defending one area.

I tend to keep a lot of extra soldiers around my bases.  32 soldiers and a couple tanks make a good defense force, in my experience.  But this many soldiers tend to end up overcrowding the access lift area.  Most soldiers wait around for the entire battle.  However, if there are two points of entry, all of the soldiers and tanks become more useful.  

Adding one base facility to connect hangars to another point in the base allows the defender to split their forces, which can speed base defense missions.  Aliens will come from two directions, but copious base defenders can easily defend both points.  Additional soldiers can wait in the middle of the base, between the two points...acting as reinforcements in either direction if necessary.  When aliens stop coming into the base, soldiers can move into the access lift and hangars simultaneously, and use a "pincer tactic" to eliminate any remaining aliens.

Another tactic I sometimes employ actually splits alien intruders into two or more groups.  For this setup, do not attach any hangars to the access lift.  Instead, place one facility adjacent to the lift.  Build other base components as usual.  When you want to add a hangar, add each hangar so that it is adjacent to one (and only one) base facility.  You will have more "empty spaces" if you use this tactic with multiple hangars, but I prefer it for my research bases (which only have one hangar).  

When you defend the base, aliens will come in the base through both the access lift and the hangar.  However, the access lift will have fewer aliens--thus, it is usually easy to clean it out before tackling the solo hangar.  You will have eliminated a sizeable portion of the aliens quickly, with limited danger.  Then, all remaining soldiers can converge on the group of aliens in the hangar.  With the aliens split into two groups, it eliminates the problem where overwhelming numbers flood out from the access lift for 10 turns straight.  

I really enjoy base defense missions.  I like the tactics that come with large numbers of soldiers using limited gear.  I like the pressure of knowing that a loss will have a huge impact on the game.  Finally, I like seeing my base architecture and pre-planned strategies for defense come into play.  

I like losing sometimes, too.  At first I'm annoyed and dejected.  But then, it's the struggle that makes the game worthwhile.  Recovering from the loss of a base is a strategic puzzle I enjoy solving.  

--Zeno
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#12 Zombie

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Posted 30 October 2004 - 02:17 AM

I think that the first thing a player of X-COM should decide before building a base is how they want to defend it. If you are a very defensive player and like setting up traps and waiting for the aliens to come to you, then it is probably a good idea to build a new base with a single "choke point" (the Access Lift) and the Hangars attached to it but segregated from the other base structures. This setup insures that all the aliens have to go the same route in order to get into the inner bowels of a base where (hopefully) your soldiers are waiting.

On the opposite side of the coin is the aggressive player who likes to hack 'n slash and get into the thick of things quickly. If this describes you, then maybe a looser variation of the "safe" design would be a better idea. This approach is especially good when you have a base with lots of veterans having plenty of battle-hardened experience. It also helps to prevent massive psi attacks by Ethereals and Sectoids. The faster you make those kills the faster the morale will drop for the remaining aliens.

If you normally have tons of soldiers stationed at every base you have and don't mind playing offense, then maybe you should consider splitting up those Hangars and the Access Lift into different quadrants of your base. The overall effect is fighting many mini-battles throughout your base. Since the aliens are concentrated into a smaller area (3 separate Hangars instead of 1 Hangar "complex") each group of soldiers can easily polish off their section and provide backup to the other battles nearby.

However, you do not have to get overly concerned with building a perfect base to defend. If you have a "safe" base design but want to play more aggressively, you can always use Blaster Bombs to "poke" a hole in the other end of the Hangar complex and initiate a pincer attack from two sides instead of one. Just make sure the area you want to use Blaster Bombs on cannot be destroyed by heavy shelling. Living Quarters and General Stores always work nice!  :P

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JellyfishGreen said:

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!

#13 Bomb Bloke

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Posted 31 October 2004 - 10:51 PM

Just a note, I tried to destroy some dirt in an alien base with heavy plasma. Couldn't seem to do it.
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#14 Zombie

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Posted 01 November 2004 - 02:45 AM

Bomb Bloke:
Metal walls in either Alien or X-COM bases are extremely resistant to practically any type of ammunition you can muster up. Blaster Bombs do an excellent job, but using a Heavy Plasma is almost impossible. Even so, it sometimes may take as many as 24 direct hits just to remove the metal.

Dirt on the other hand, is far less resistant than metal. A Fusion Bomb fired from a Hovertank/Launcher cannot remove the metal from floors and walls, but expose the dirt, and it can do damage. Using the Heavy Plasma to "burrow" through dirt can be done. One auto-shot may or may not be enough to destroy it. Just give it some time, you may need to get a more accurate soldier up there to fire at the dirt. (Make sure you are using a Heavy Plasma. Plasma Rifles do not harm dirt, period).  :P

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JellyfishGreen said:

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!

#15 Bomb Bloke

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Posted 01 November 2004 - 02:59 AM

I had no problem with the metal. The dirt just wouldn't go, regardless of how many heavy plasma clips I used. Gave up after a while.

This was in an alien base... I do know the game uses different files for that, then it does for an X-com base. Are you sure dirt works the same?
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#16 Zombie

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Posted 01 November 2004 - 03:50 AM

I think alien base dirt is different than X-COM base dirt. Just double-checked with soldiers having a FA of 120 to make sure. Heavy Plasma fire will not destroy dirt at an alien base. However, the Celatid's acid spit (damage = 140), and the Cyberdisc's plasma beam (damage = 130) are strong enough. That's a fact. As always, so is the Blaster Bomb (damage = 200). The Heavy Plasma (damage = 115) is just not powerful enough. Therefore, the threshhold for damaging alien base dirt must be between 115 and 130. Most likely, it's 120.

X-COM base dirt is easily shot out with the Heavy Plasma, but is impossible to hurt with the Plasma Rifle (damage = 80). Therefore, the threshhold for damaging X-COM dirt is between 80 and 115. I'll have to check it out with the Alien Grenade (damage = 90) and the High Explosive (damage = 110) to narrow the damage down somewhat!  :P

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JellyfishGreen said:

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!

#17 Bomb Bloke

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Posted 01 November 2004 - 03:56 AM

Ok then.  :P
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#18 Zombie

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Posted 01 November 2004 - 04:18 AM

By the way, the Hovertank/Launcher's Blaster Bomb has a damage of 140. The damage it inflicts on X-COM base dirt seems to be equal to the hand-held Blaster Launcher. It destroys the same number of tiles of dirt.

Something that may be useful to note is that the Hovertank/Launcher's Blaster Bomb cannot destroy the outer walls of an X-COM base. It also will not destroy the inner walls of a base structure. The only things it can damage in a base structure is the furniture and items in the rooms. I am still trying to verify if you will lose a base structure due to loss of items in the structure, or the loss of the metal walls that surround it. Give me some time for this, as I am very busy right now!  :P

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JellyfishGreen said:

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!

#19 NKF

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Posted 01 November 2004 - 04:31 AM

The furniture/scenery on the upper levels definitely factor in somehow. For living quarters, for example, I had to wipe out all the beds before the game would acknowledge the module as being destroyed.  (I'm wondering if this is why a hangar cannot be destroyed - it has no furniture on the upper level to be destroyed?)

By the way, a laser tank deals 110 laser damage. Though it takes a lot of tries, I can still get it to destroy the outer wall (shell?) of an X-Com base. I wonder what's stopping the fusion hovertank from knocking a hole in the wall seeing as it does 140?

Hang on, hang on, was it 110 laser damage or 130? I recall it was identical to the plasma hovertank in strength except the damage type.  


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#20 Zombie

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Posted 01 November 2004 - 05:17 AM

Yes indeed, the power of the Tank/Laser cannon is 110 - the same strength as the Hovertank/Plasma. The Tank/Laser Cannon's weapon is very powerful, just 5 points less damage than the Heavy Plasma. And the Heavy Plasma can cut through metal walls, but just barely. Probably, the damage necessary to remove a wall tile is 100. Why isn't a Hovertank/Launcher's Blaster Bomb strong enough to destroy metal walls? Maybe, just maybe, those walls are more resistant to High Explosive rounds than laser or plasma bolts. It's possible.

You destroyed the Living Quarters? I wasn't able to do this. Even with 15 Blaster Bomb explosions, the structure still survived. The General Stores cannot be destroyed either. They have tons of stuff in the upstairs rooms: Metal storage units, shelves and tables. I do not know whether having "furniture" in an upstairs room automatically qualifies it to be destroyed. The General Stores may or may not be an exception.  :P

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JellyfishGreen said:

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!




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