UK court convicts Afghan warlord

[Accounting Troll]

An Afghan warlord who behaved like a dark ages robber baron in Afghanistan between 1991 and 1996 has just been found guilty of torture and kidnapping by a court in the UK.

 

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4693239.stm

 

I find this case interesting because even though he is an Afghan citizen (although he has lived in the UK since 2000) and the offences he was accused of clearly happened in Afghanistan, he was convicted by a British court, which sets an intriguing precedent.

 

Normally this would be considered to be an internal matter for Afghanistan and he would simply be deported, but the British Attourney General argued that the crimes he was accused of were so severe that it was right for him to be tried in the UK.

 

Was it morally right for Britain to put him on trial instead of deporting him to Afghanistan? What are the long term implications of this case if the House of Lords and the European Court upholds the verdict?

[FullAuto]

Rather an odd precedent to set, really. I don't think it will be upheld. Surely if it is, that means any country can grab anyone they want and prosecute them for crimes? I can see that being misused by some of the more unscrupulous nations.

 

E.g. China arrests a Taiwanese citizen and hauls them up on charges of treason. America trying and convicting Saddam Hussein for violating the Constitution of the US. And so on.

 

The proper place for the man to be tried is either in an international court, or in a court of his home country. The only time he should be in a British court is if he commits a crime on British soil.

[Solitaire]

E.g.  China arrests a Taiwanese citizen and hauls them up on charges of treason.  America trying and convicting Saddam Hussein for violating the Constitution of the US.  And so on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think those are completely different from this situation. I think you're implying that a country could try anyone for a crime against their country, whereas in this case the UK is trying an Afghan man for crimes in his own country, rather than in UK. I think this is fair if the crimes are bad enough.

Lets face it, would he be likely to face prosecution at home?

[FullAuto]

If his crimes are that bad, they'll be illegal anywhere and so he would face prosecution.

This stinks. Witnesses testifying over a bloody video link, an 'international convention' which allows people to be tried in England no matter where they've committed their crimes? Why aren't we trying thousands of people, then?

There's plenty out there. So why do they get left alone but this bloke gets pulled?

[Accounting Troll]

He will probably get off on appeal by arguing that a British court has no jurisdiction over the matter. I was surprised that we didn't simply pack him off to The Hague back in 2000.

 

This reminds me of the whole General Pinochet fiasco a little while back.

[sir-roosio]

It does state in the article that. . .

 

"Mr Zardad was found in England. An international convention and English law allow the trial in England of anyone who has committed torture or hostage-taking, irrespective of where those crimes were committed."

 

So I assume that theres an international convention that allows trying in other countries for people guilty of war crimes. I would hazard a guess that this may be in case a country is over run and ceases to exist, you could claim that you can't be tried as the country you commmited the offences in no longer exists, hence you can't be guilty.

 

You probably can't try someone for stealing a loaf of bread, or else god forbid you should have anal sex in England, get snatched by Delta force and end up in Alabama (mind you, thats one mission Delta Force could probably do!) I would imagine it sets out pretty explicitly which crimes do and don't count.

 

Even so, still an interesting precedent!

[FullAuto]

So why has this international convention never been used before? Why choose to use it now? There's been plenty of horrible sods around since forever, and we have a law saying they can be tried in this country, but we just DECIDE not to use it until now?

Someone's doing some creative bloody interpretation.

[sir-roosio]

Possibly, or possibly it was easier to do it this way as the guy had already moved to the UK, so there was no messy extradition procedures to do to get him from afghanistan to an officialy recognised court (see black hawk down to find out how that could go wrong). and it saved months of work going through the procedure to export him form the UK to the UN court legally.

 

The way the press attacks this government for spenmding tax payers money, it was probably cheaper to try him here, then go throuhg the red tape of sending him to the Hague(sp?).

 

sorry, vision of the EX-torie party leader, in his baseball cap, being Judge Jury and Executioner!

[Accounting Troll]

I think Michael Howard would be a better executioner...

[FullAuto]

Possibly, or possibly it was easier to do it this way as the guy had already moved to the UK, so there was no messy extradition procedures to do to get him from afghanistan to an officialy recognised court (see black hawk down to find out how that could go wrong). and it saved months of work going through the procedure to export him form the UK to the UN court legally.

 

Oh, that's alright then, as long as we're breaking the law to save money.

[zeus185]

if it was up to me id iv shot the B*****d and beleve you me he wouldent have been the last

killing and tortouring inocent women and children is unforgivable we can all sit back and debate things

but if it was one of our loved ones out there being hurt we wouldent sit back for long!

[zeus185]

im not ranting at anyone i beleve if you are dealing with terror lords you must deal in terreor yourself when you catch them you kill them you dont inprison em you deal with them harshly and directly......yes i know certain individuals would them consider the person a martyer however you keep tabs on them and if they so much as twich you bring them and if they guilty.......you let them blow there self up.....on a deserted island

[FullAuto]

if it was up to me id iv shot the B*****d and beleve you me he wouldent have been the last

killing and tortouring inocent women and children is unforgivable we can all sit back and debate things

but if it was one of our loved ones out there being hurt we wouldent sit back for long!

 

Yes, but if it were our loved ones getting hurt, it'd be happening to a citizen of our country, and most likely happening in our own country, right? So we'd legally be able to prosecute them.

Saying "Look here, Johnny Foreigner, you can't go around doing as you like in your own country." is hearkening back several hundred years, and it's not going to do anyone any good.

Can you imagine the outcry if another country picked up a WHITE British citizen and started trying them for crimes in their country? Everyone would be up on their soapbox straight away, saying "He's a British subject, and should be tried in a British court under British law."

But no, this is ok, because he's an Arab. Let's be honest, they're not the flavour of the month, are they? Anyone can have a pop at Muslims and the Middle East and no one will say a word. This man tortured and killed people and we're supposed to believe we're doing this for the good of the world?

What about all the others who have killed and maimed and tortured? Who ARE killing, maiming and torturing, right now. Is the only reason we're not prosecuting them GEOGRAPHY?

Say it isn't so...

[zeus185]

as for all the other ones who are torturing and killing they should be strung up and "taken out" as well it dosent matter where they came from or what they beleve in

iv stuided some religons and i find islamic the most distastful under there "law" its ok for to beat up there

other half and women shouldent have rights neither iv had moslum pals aswell and i got on ok with them

but remember the teacher whom was one of the bomers i bet you his collueges(im a crap speller)

thought he was pritty ok as well.....terrorists are two faced nice one minute killing you the next.....yeah we'v all heard how most of islamic people condem the bombing and say its terrible and some of them probibly do but there are a lot that dont

as for the guy who was my mate well when all the terrorist stuff started happining he stoped talking to me

i tryed to get in contact but hes ignored me(and i remember him talking about how he dident like the US and stuff like that and he was really western like you or me) so just remember peeps becareful who you trust!

[FullAuto]

I don't much like the US at the moment, that doesn't make me a suicide bomber now does it?

Perhaps certain folk should be 'taken out' but I don't remember anyone appointing us Brits as judge, jury and executioner. Of course, things like that happen, but it's not a crusade for justice, nor do we pretend it is. Governments have people killed. Fair enough. However, we don't target every evil sod, do we? No, we just top the ones who oppose us. The evil sods we have on our side we pat on the head (until they get caught or go nuts).

So why are we pretending like we're a beacon of peace and justice? We're not. Neither is America. Nor is any country I can think of.

So on the one hand, we shouldn't be wasting money on this bloke, he should have got a bullet in the skull and an unmarked grave, or on the other hand, we're trying him out of the goodness of our hearts, because we're such great people.

Bollocks, quite frankly. If we're so interested in justice, we would be arresting people non-stop, all over the world.

 

I have a couple of Muslim friends, and quite frankly, I trust them more than 99% of the white people I know.

[zeus185]

I don't much like the US at the moment, that doesn't make me a suicide bomber now does it?

Perhaps certain folk should be 'taken out' but I don't remember anyone appointing us Brits as judge, jury and executioner.  Of course, things like that happen, but it's not a crusade for justice, nor do we pretend it is.  Governments have people killed.  Fair enough.  However, we don't target every evil sod, do we?  No, we just top the ones who oppose us.  The evil sods we have on our side we pat on the head (until they get caught or go nuts).

So why are we pretending like we're a beacon of peace and justice?  We're not.  Neither is America.  Nor is any country I can think of.

So on the one hand, we shouldn't be wasting money on this bloke, he should have got a bullet in the skull and an unmarked grave, or on the other hand, we're trying him out of the goodness of our hearts, because we're such great people.

Bollocks, quite frankly.  If we're so interested in justice, we would be arresting people non-stop, all over the world.

 

I have a couple of Muslim friends, and quite frankly, I trust them more than 99% of the white people I know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

 

true true but thats what i said if it was up to me they would all be dead(not moslums proper evil b*****ds regardless of religon or place of birth)hurting innocents is pure evil and is punishible by death and if i had the reasores i would do it.......now im glad you have good mates there that happend to be moslums but you have to understand i (thought) had a good mate too but turned out i was wrong one minute your training with the

guy and helping him out with his problems and the next minute he's not speaking to you i mean how would you feel? as for trusting people i dont really trust anyone but i try to keep an open mind

[FullAuto]

Can you really blame him though? I mean, a few nutters who have the same skin colour as you blow themselves up, and suddenly every white person you see (about 95% of the population here in the UK) is looking at you funny, even people who you thought were your friends.

As to killing innocents, we've killed a lot more civilians invading Afghanistan and Iraq than Al-Qaeda have in the US and UK. Do you really think saying "whoops, sorry, didn't see your village there." makes it any better? "Aw, gee, collateral damage is inevitable. Let's shovel up those guts before CNN gets here."

They bomb us. So we throw our toys out of the pram and invade. We kill a shedload of civilians, only creating more hatred and more reason for them to bomb us. Added into the bargain is the sudden divisive effect in our multicultural society. When we get bombed, everyone starts looking at the Muslim population and muttering under their breath. The Muslims, understandably, feel more than a little alienated, and no matter how much they decry the terrorist bombings, people always doubt.

[zeus185]

dude are you trying to say im one of those people? he knew me this wasent just some guy i just met

off the f****** street he knew how i felt about people as a whole "do onto others as they do onto you"

until somone screws with me there my buddy until they do somthing horrible to me or my famliy then i treat them like that he KNEW this.......iv got english mates too if i suddenly find my self in a fight with somone who was born south of the border i ant gonna start picking on my other mates just cos of that one guy and you dident answer my question how would you feel if it had happend to you?

[FullAuto]

No, I'm not saying you're one of those people. I'm saying, try to emphasise with the man. You'll find his actions understandable.

How would I feel if it happened to me? Angry and hurt. The same way every Muslim in the UK feels around now, I expect.

[Strong Bob]

How do you know this guy stopped talking to you because of the bombing? Why do you claim that "a lot of them" are untrustworthy when you can only name one?

 

Seriously, the facts don't add up very well. Especially how you jump to such a conclusion when only one of your buds stop talking to you. I'd suggest getting to know more of the Muslim community before making such a claim.

[zeus185]

no thank you im very picky about who i pick to be my mates now and if you read my post corectly i said i dont trust many people(if any one) you are truly being naive when you can stand back at a distance and say

"give them a chance" and "the west deserves what we get"(even though the second gulf war was a farse

and i think we should have finished in 91 what we started in 91) honestly i doubt any of you have lost anyone

close to you in terrorist acts and if you have you wouldent be defending any of them

and if you did you dident love the person you lost very much!

[FullAuto]

you are truly being naive when you can stand back at a distance and say

"give them a chance" and "the west deserves what we get"(even though the second gulf war was a farse

and i think we should have finished in 91 what we started in 91) honestly i doubt any of you have lost anyone

close to you in terrorist acts and if you have you wouldent be defending any of them

and if you did you dident love the person you lost very much!

 

I see. So we should just round them up and put them into camps, right? I mean, they're not trustworthy, are they? I think you're absolutely right, I think any Western country should be able to bomb anywhere else in the world, kill and maim at will, ruin infrastructure and impose sanctions that kill children and never fear any kind of retaliatory strike.

Yes, we should have done the job properly in '91. But we didn't. So we invaded again, losing more lives, on both sides.

You have no idea if any of us has lost anyone, because quite frankly if a member had, I don't think they'd come on a forum and tell everyone. Grief is often a private matter.

And if we had, we wouldn't be defending any of 'them'? Who are 'them'? It seems to me you're putting all Muslims in one basket. I'm talking about the Muslim community, decent ordinary people who have jobs and want nothing more to raise their kids in peace, and detest the bombers more than anyone else because they give their race a bad name.

You're using a blanket term, including the bombers and normal people. That's something akin to calling every German who fought in WWII a Nazi, when most weren't. You're demonising a race.

[Kernel]

Well, UK and US did "liberate" Afghanistan a few years ago.

My guess is that the UK asked the new government in Afghanistan if they wanted him back and they probably said "No thanks, you keep him".

 

Well that's my over-simplified guess at what went on anyway.

[zeus185]

how do you now they detest bombers can you read their minds? you dont know if secretly their thinking

"Yes Yes bomb them thats it do it that'll teach people a thing or two" and then say to you "its a terrable shame" HOW DO YOU KNOW......im a very suspicious person to begin with maybe its just me(maybe it isent)

and "them" is moslums and islamics whom beleve there way or no way and as i recall 9/11 and a few other terrorist attacts happend BEFORE we invaded iraq for the 2nd time and there wasent very much tension

before that

anyway iv met good hard working moslums and all they want is peace its the ones that beleve

there way is best for everyone and there willing to kill anyone to get it

and the thing that gets me is a lot of them were born and brought up in the west and

have never been to a funametalist country if they did they'd know what a hell hole

it is i mean they wouldent have any of the comforts they take for granted here!

Terrorists are using the war as a big excuse as i said a lot of attacks happend

before the war

 

(and if it appears im taring all the molums with the same brush i am not i did met one bad apple true

i just dispise people who hurt good men ,women and children i wouldent care if they were an international

gang of hobos who were doing it its just wrong

[FullAuto]

as i recall 9/11 and a few other terrorist attacts happend BEFORE we invaded iraq for the 2nd time and there wasent very much tension

before that

 

Yes. Before we invaded it the SECOND time, but AFTER we invaded it the first time. Not to mention all the other grief before the first Gulf War.

 

its the ones that beleve

there way is best for everyone and there willing to kill anyone to get it

 

That applies to plenty of people over here too.

 

the thing that gets me is a lot of them were born and brought up in the west and

have never been to a funametalist country if they did they'd know what a hell hole

it is i mean they wouldent have any of the comforts they take for granted here!

 

Not all Middle-Eastern countries are Hellholes. Their standard of living may not be quite as high as the West's, but they're well above the standard of most of the world.

 

Terrorists are using the war as a big excuse as i said a lot of attacks happend

before the war

 

Which war? A big excuse for what?