Accounting Troll Posted July 5, 2005 Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 As some of you know, the British government is trying to introduce a compulsory national ID card. The government is arguing that it is necessary to deal with terrorism, crime and illegal immigrants. How do you people feel about the concept? Is it no different to things like driving licences and passports, or is it an infringement of civil liberties? I personally am opposed to the scheme for the following reasons: 1. The London School of Economics thinks that the government is going to end up charging us £300 each.2. There is some evidence that our government will sell the information it collects for the national database to anybody who wants it.3. It will create a black market for counterfeit ID cards (someone will find a way) for criminals and terrorists.4. Some terrorists, including the Shoe Bomber are British subjects. An ID card scheme will not pick them up.5. It will make it easier for unscrupilous employers to cheat illegal immigrants. A lot of them work in the building trade where they have to endure unsafe working conditions for wages that are below the minimum wage, and they are often cheated out of that by the employer.6. Many of these immigrants will be forced into crime to support themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FullAuto Posted July 5, 2005 Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 I'm opposed to it too. For similar reasons, but also because whenever a governement says "the innocent have nothing to fear" the innocent should start bloody running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slaughter Posted July 5, 2005 Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 Guess my view... Seriously though, I am not familiar with it. Care to explain a little? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strong Bob Posted July 5, 2005 Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 Neither am I. Any links on the net that explain the system in-depth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FullAuto Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 There's some info here.That's the Home Office, so that's the pro side.Here's some of the cons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomb Bloke Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 I gather goverments are introducing microchip implants in some third world countries. Funded by the richer countries, for some reason. Hmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos the Jackal Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 We already have national ID cards. They are called Drivers Licences. Really, what can you do these days without showing forms of identification, and the drivers licence is the one most commonly reached for. A Nat ID card simply lowers the amount of plastic in your wallet. No need to get all tinfoil hat over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FullAuto Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 It's unnecessary and we'll be made to pay for it? I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos the Jackal Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 It's unnecessary and we'll be made to pay for it? I think not.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> I forgot that drivers licences were free, and so is any sort of modernisation of infrastructure. Sorry, won't happen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FullAuto Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 Cost of a drivers licence is cheap. National ID cards won't be, will entitle you to do things you already can do without needing one (access to NHS, apply for benefits and everything else) as you can use your driver's licence or passport, and the fact that every government usuallly mucks up any 'modernisation of infrastructure' and either goes over budget or fails to get it working entirely obviously is perfectly fine. Why shouldn't governments be incompetent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos the Jackal Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 Thats why we ge to watch you guys go first. When Britan horribly botches the intoduction of ID cards, we Aussies get to pick up all the benifits of the new system and do it on the cheap too, you guys having kindy gone through all the trial and error (and error. And error) for us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FullAuto Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 LOL. Typical Aussies. Always late. I thought you lot had already been through this national ID card thing anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos the Jackal Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 LOL. Typical Aussies. Always late. I thought you lot had already been through this national ID card thing anyway?<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Indeed, Attorney-General Ruddock ruled it out, citing identity theft concerns. This didn't rule it out for all time, just for a while. So, I wasn't just joking, my above post is our actual policy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accounting Troll Posted July 6, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 That's pretty sensible. Our government has a lot of faith in new biometric technology, which it thinks will make the ID card system foolproof. There's bound to be some technological and organisational difficulties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FullAuto Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 I've got to say, I'm not shocked that we're carrying the Australians again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kret Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 Here in Spain, this ID system has been working for as long as I can remember, and at a personal level the only true inconvenience of it is the paperwork when you 1st apply for 1 (they are issued when you reach 14 years old here) get's stolen with the wallet, you change address or any other main change. Renewal is free as long as you do it within the expiration time-frame. Anyway, let me try and asnwer following Accounting Troll's listed points: 1. You people are already being charged (and most paying) for and idiotic "TV license" or are you talking in an indirect payment through taxes as the goverment spends money in the infrastructure envolved in the process of putting this to work? If that's the case, why not just think of it as money that won't go into the politician's pockets? 2. True, but do you think they aren't already doing that? 3. Defenetly, but credit card's can also be forged and I don't see any hype about that. Also, I don't think they'll go for more than just forged passports for terrorists attacks if they're from other countries. Or worse, get perfectly valid papers, live normal lives until some mad guy gives the command and perform a suicide run. 4. Can't counter this comment, basically 'cause the goverment just use "big issues" to try and gain favor of a decision they want passed. 5. I can't see how exactly will it make it easier. Care to elaborate 6. You mean they aren't already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FullAuto Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 1. If it pays for the BBC, probably the finest news service in the world, then I can live with that. If the whole thing goes over-budget, and it will, oh yes, politicians will get their share of the increase. They're like parasites. Correction: They ARE parasites. 2. I doubt it, or at least, not to such an extent as they will do if they get this system. 3. There's little point in forging credit cards, seeing as you only need the details off them, not the card itself to order things over the phone/net. Forgeries will always be available, and they'll be a damn sight more important than forged credit cards. Passports only entitle you to enter/leave the country, they won't entitle you to use the NHS, apply for benefits, access the full internal infrastructure of the country, etc. These cards will be expensive normally, forgeries will be worth a lot more. 4. Terrorists will either get great forgeries or the real thing, one way or another. ID cards won't make any difference. 5. It will make a bad situation worse. 6. No, surprisingly enough. Most of them work long hours for crap pay, doing the jobs no one else wants to do. They usually come from places that are a lot worse, so their work ethic is a Hell of a lot more rigorous. People whine about immigrants, illegal or not, when said immigrants have strong family values and work hard, which is what made a lot of countries great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kret Posted July 7, 2005 Report Share Posted July 7, 2005 A question. In the UK, aren't you issued a Social Security number when you're born (or a couple of weeks after) as a UK citizen? If this is the case, they you could say there's already an ID system working. A goverment controlled broadcasting corporation a "fine news service"? Not in my vocabulary. Rather than forging CCs, what I really meant was copying CCs, the magnetic band that is plus obtaining the "secret code number". It's been done and with very simple, yet effective methods. As for the last 2 points, I just want to make clear I don't see the reasoning that will lead to such situation. How will having an ID make it easier to cheat illegal inmigrants?, the only thing that favours this is when the inmigrants DON'T have any papers/ID that "validates" their presence in the country.Or, how will having an ID system will force more inmigrants into criminal life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FullAuto Posted July 7, 2005 Report Share Posted July 7, 2005 The BBC isn't government-controlled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Accounting Troll Posted July 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2005 The head of the BBC is appointed by the government, and it is the government that sets the licence fees, so the government does have some indirect control over the BBC. Don't forget that they forced the head of the BBC to resign in the aftermath of the Hutton inquiry. The only real check on BBC impartiality is that the political parties and corporate owned media are constantly on the look out for any sign of BBC political bias. Kret: I'm interested by what you said about how people in Spain have got used to the ID cards over the years, so they no longer seem like a big deal. Our government plans to make them voluntary for several years in the hope that we will see things the same way by the time they are compulsory. We did indeed adapt to all the CCTV cameras we have nowadays. It's a big step for us because I think that historically we have only had a national ID card scheme during the two World Wars (and their immediate aftermath) out of fear of German spies. This fear turned out to be unjustified. We do indeed have social security numbers that are unique to each individual, so I suppose that in a way we do already have national ID cards. You need a social security number to be able to claim any sort of benefits and to pay taxes. However there are few other circuimstances in which you will be asked for your social security number. Most employees in the UK have to tell their employer their social security number when they start a new job. The employer then automatically deducts income tax and national insurance (theoretically a seperate tax to fund health and walfare, but in reality a seperate income tax) from each paycheque the employee receives. This system means the employee doesn't have the hassle of filling in tax returns at the end of the year and scraping together the money to pay the Inland revenue a lump sum at the end of each year. Some industries employ a lot of workers on a casual, self employed, basis. A reputable employer deducts 19% of the employee's pay and sends it to the Inland Revenue as tax. However, a lot of these employers perfer a less formal cash-in-hand approach because they don't want to bother the tax man. If they know that a particular employee is an illegal immigrant, they can freely cheat him out of his wages because they know that he will not dare go to the police because he would be deported. The ID card system would make it harder for an illegal immigrant to kid his unscrupilous employer into thinking that he has a legitimate right to live in the UK. The social security number system is badly enforced at the moment. There have been a number of cases when an individual aquires several numbers and uses them to make several fraudulent benefit claims, and no employer ever bothers to check up on whether the number his employee has given him is genuine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FullAuto Posted July 7, 2005 Report Share Posted July 7, 2005 Aye, if you forget your SS number, they just set you up with an emergency one which is good for two or three years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomb Bloke Posted July 8, 2005 Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 The BBC isn't directly controlled via the goverment. It is, however, highely influenced by it, last I heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Photon Posted July 8, 2005 Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 How do you people feel about the concept? Is it no different to things like driving licences and passportsWell, here in Uruguay it is no different, we have had compulsory ID cards for a loooooooooong time here .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman4117 Posted July 8, 2005 Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 I'm strongly against this. It's all about controlling your population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strong Bob Posted July 8, 2005 Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 How does having ID cards control you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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