Two Quick Questions

[Hobbes]

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So the consensus seems to be to download the .NET software anyway, despite the huge file size. All righty, I guess I'll download it overnight when I'm sleeping! 

If you are interested, take a gander at the Two Quick Questions thread. My data primarily deals with where your soldiers (and/or tanks) spawn in an X-COM base defense mission. Although, some alien spawn point data is also intermixed throughout my posts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

From what I've read on the post you mentioned, Map View will answer nearly all of those questions concerning Map View.

I've been looking at the XBase maps and I noticed a couple of things that confirm your observations:

- There is 1 spawn point on the General Stores, close to the stairs that could be used to place an alien. I say could because of its unit rank flag. To put it simply, this flag determines what type of unit can be spawed there. It can be XCom (flag value set to 1), Soldier (2), Navigator(4), etc. There is also the 0 value which is used for Civilians or for particular aliens set by the game to wander around looking for humans (Scouts). Now, the interesting thing is that all alien spawn nodes on XBase have a 2 value, with the exception of that particular General Stores node, which has a 0 setting. And another interesting thing is that if a 2x2 unit is generated there it will be stuck to the wall. I don't recall ever seeing an alien being generated there, which probably means that the node has a bug: it should either be an X-COM node or a Soldier node, both set for small units (there is a flag that controls that too).

- This bring me to my second observation that confirms your theory: when X-Com soldiers start being generated on places like the lift or hangars it happens because there is no more X-COM spawn nodes available. When it happens to alien units, the extra aliens are simply discarded (they don't get generated on empty XCOM nodes)

 

Finally, a little more information that might help you out (you can see it all on Map View)

- There is a limit of 255 spawn nodes on each map

- The node information is entered to the program one .rmp file at the time.

- Each node contains 5 different flags: Type (Any, Flying, Small, etc); Rank (0 Civ/Scout, 1 XCom, 2 Soldier, 3 Navigator, etc.); Flags (can vary between 0 and 8 - my theory is that this flag is used by the AI to decide to where to the aliens); Zero (no one has an idea of what this flag is about); and Spawn (ranges from 0 - no units are spawned there to 9, it determines the probability of an alien being generated there).

-

[Zombie]

Thanks Hobbes! I'm glad that all this testing seems to confirm what the game says.

 

That spawn point near the steps on Level 0 of the General Stores does seem to be a unique node. I've had a 2x2 Sectopod spawn there as well as a 1x1 alien, an X-COM soldier, and most recently, a 2x2 HWP. The difference between the Sectopod and the tank was also different: All 4 quarters of the Sectopod spawned, but only half of the alien was actually inside the base. The other half spawned outside the base in the dirt! Just today, I was testing out the case where a HWP could be found there. Well, only 1/4 of the tank spawned - in the dirt! My original theory was this particular node is quite buggy in nature. From your information, and my new data gathered today, it convinced me!

 

The General Stores are also unique in general. This is the only structure with double-wide doors on Level 0. Because tanks are stored in this module, they spawn there too. The programmers just assumed a 2x2 unit could fit in that spawn location, but forgot how that unit would be orientated. There would be 4 ways a 2x2 unit could spawn in a 1x1 node: Quadrant I, II, III or IV. If the game picks that the first Quadrant of the unit will spawn in that node, the unit might spawn normally (and in one piece). However, if a different quadrant is used, the tank will spawn outside the confines of the module itself. I'll have to check out the orientation a little more to give an accurate picture of the situation. Most likely, my theory on orientation is part of the trouble (not all).

[Hobbes]

Thanks Hobbes! I'm glad that all this testing seems to confirm what the game says.

 

That spawn point near the steps on Level 0 of the General Stores does seem to be a unique node. I've had a 2x2 Sectopod spawn there as well as a 1x1 alien, an X-COM soldier, and most recently, a 2x2 HWP. The difference between the Sectopod and the tank was also different: All 4 quarters of the Sectopod spawned, but only half of the alien was actually inside the base. The other half spawned outside the base in the dirt! Just today, I was testing out the case where a HWP could be found there. Well, only 1/4 of the tank spawned - in the dirt! My original theory was this particular node is quite buggy in nature. From your information, and my new data gathered today, it convinced me! 

 

The General Stores are also unique in general. This is the only structure with double-wide doors on Level 0. Because tanks are stored in this module, they spawn there too. The programmers just assumed a 2x2 unit could fit in that spawn location, but forgot how that unit would be orientated. There would be 4 ways a 2x2 unit could spawn in a 1x1 node: Quadrant I, II, III or IV. If the game picks that the first Quadrant of the unit will spawn in that node, the unit might spawn normally (and in one piece). However, if a different quadrant is used, the tank will spawn outside the confines of the module itself. I'll have to check out the orientation a little more to give an accurate picture of the situation. Most likely, my theory on orientation is part of the trouble (not all).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

2x2 units always spawn in the same quadrant, if i understood correctly what you mean by that term. Using the Skyranger as a reference (ramp pointing north), the portion of the 2x2 unit that occupies the spawn point is always the NW or "top".

[Zombie]

You are correct, sir! I just tested this out today, and the upper-left part of the HWP spawned on the node. Since that node in the General Stores is right up against the wall, that means that when a 2x2 unit tries to spawn there, only half will show up in the base. The rest will spawn in the dirt.

 

Hobbes, do you think you could elaborate on the 5 flag types? You only have some listed for Type and Rank. I'm really close to forming a theory on why that node in the General Stores is "buggy". If you could list what you know, I think I'll have the answer. It's so close, I can smell it!! Thanks!

[Hobbes]

Hobbes, do you think you could elaborate on the 5 flag types? You only have some listed for Type and Rank. I'm really close to forming a theory on why that node in the General Stores is "buggy". If you could list what you know, I think I'll have the answer. It's so close, I can smell it!! Thanks!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You can read it better on Map View's help file but here's a brief summary:

- Each node has several 5 selections, besides its location, internal number and links to other nodes. They are named by MapView: Type; Rank; Flags; Zero and Spawn.

- Type specifies the type of units that can use the node for moving/spawning. This refers to the unit size and flying ability. It can be set to Any, Flying, FlyingLarge, Large and Small.

- Rank defines the rank/race of the alien who can use the node. 0 setting is for Civilians and aliens with a scout flag and 1 for X-Com units. The aliens will use the nodes with a 2:Soldier rank, unless there are nodes with other ranks, like 3:Navigator, 4:Leader/Commander, etc. These nodes are used on UFO bridges, for instance, to keep the officers there. There are two ranks that have been called Misc1 and Misc2 also. There is no information about what they are for, but they might be related to the Zero setting.

- Flags is a mystery. It can have a setting from zero to eight am pretty sure that it is used to tell the AI that the alien unit should do something when reaching that node. One behaviour I had noticed is that the aliens in higher levels will reach 1st level on the first turns if all the nodes in the map have a 0 setting. But if some nodes on 2nd and 3rd have another flag setting it seems to keep the aliens up there, although I don't have definite confirmation of this.

- Zero is even a bigger mistery. Nearly all maps on UFO and TFTD have this setting set for 0, but there are a couple of maps of TFTD that have a different setting, and also the Misc1/Misc2 rank settings. These maps include the Large and Very Large USOs and alien colony. My bet is that they determine the specific alien types of the initial version of TFTD, where you had to get specific aliens and ranks to advance your research.

- And finally Spawn. Any value bigger than zero will make it possible for the unit to spawn at the node.

 

This is basically what I know about these flags.

[Hobbes]

I've being collecting all information I have concerning these mystery features and here it is:

- In all UFO maps the Zero setting is 0. However, in TFTD there are several exceptions. Ubases12-15 maps (X-Com Base) some X-Com spawning nodes have 5 on their settings. These maps seem to be all Sonar/Resolver maps and one possibility is that it is used to spawn X-Com officers there. The other different value for the Zero setting happens on A_Base12, on which there's a 3 setting on a node.

- Map View lists the several choices for Rank setting as the following: Civ/Scout, XCom, Soldier, Navigator, Leader/Commander, Engineer, Misc1, Medic, Misc2. On UFO the Misc1 and Misc2 are never used. But for TFTD the list goes as this: Civ/Scout, XCom, Soldier, Squad Leader, Leader/Commander, Medic, Misc1, Technician, Misc2. The Misc1 rank appears on 2 maps: UFO06 (Battleship) and Grunge12 (Artifact Site) while the Misc2 appears on another 2 maps: UFO07(Dreadnaught) and Grunge12 (Artifact Site). Now if you look at the rank structure for TFTD there's one rank missing: Navigator. This can either be because the rank structure is different from UFO and Map View doesn't reflect that accurately (Leader rank, for instance, doesn't exist on TFTD, but Squad Leader instead). But it is also possible that the Misc1 and Misc2 indicate an extra rank, considering how Navigators (especially Lobstermen ones) were so necessary for the advance to go forward on the early versions of the game.

[Zombie]

Very interesting info there, Hobbes. I really appreciate your help on the subject. You're a top-notch guy!

 

I have been looking at the node in the General Stores near the stairs to see why everything seems to be able to spawn there. Now, you said that the Rank flag is 0 for that particular location, right? That means it's possible for an alien "scout" to spawn there. But that node must have a Rank flag of 1 too (because X-COM units normally spawn there). Unless, that value of 0 can mean anything - civilian, alien scout, or X-COM soldier, depending on the node situation (how many are occupied).

 

Now, you do not explicity mention what the Type flag is set to for that location. I'll wager to bet the value is "Any". Why? Because both large and small units can spawn in that location. See, the General Stores is set-up to hold tanks in it's lower floor. However, soldiers can also utilize those spots too if there aren't any tanks. The programmers had to make those lower spawn points so that both soldiers or tanks can use those nodes.

 

But why is the "Rank" node near the steps set to 0 instead of 1? I dunno. It's very possible that the programmers forgot to change the Rank flag to 1. Who knows, every node on the base might have originally been programmed with a value of 0 for testing the system out. Then the nodes were switched to their current values. That one near the steps could have been missed.

 

The other option is that the programmers meant for any unit to spawn there. I'm thinking this is very unlikely, but you never know. It could have been designed as an "overflow" spawn point for the aliens. The programmers knew that most likely players will build one Hangar (in addition to the Access Lift). That comes to 23 spawn points for the aliens. On Superhuman skill level the minimum number of aliens you could see is 22. Maybe that location was chosen as a "overflow" point, so that at least the minumim number of aliens will show up. That's just a guess though. What do you think? Is that loaction an intentional "bug", or did the programmers screw up?

[Hobbes]

Very interesting info there, Hobbes. I really appreciate your help on the subject. You're a top-notch guy!

Unless, that value of 0 can mean anything - civilian, alien scout, or X-COM soldier, depending on the node situation (how many are occupied).

Maybe that location was chosen as a "overflow" point, so that at least the minumim number of aliens will show up. That's just a guess though. What do you think? Is that loaction an intentional "bug", or did the programmers screw up?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The 0 setting is only used for Scouts/Civilians. There are several 0 spawn points on all the other maps (farm, city, etc.) and the X-Com units are only generated inside the aircraft. Still you are probably right: maybe the program is set to use the 0 spawn point in case there are no more spawn points available to generate X-Com units. I recall someone mentioning that X-Com units can be generated on alien bases outside the lift maps and alien bases have several 0 spawn points.

But I am more inclined to it being a bug. I have found a couple of bugs on the map and terrain files but they don't really affect the game. Another possibility is that the 0 spawn point on the Stores module was meant to place an alien unit there, like it happens on TFTD where you have alien spawn points on the stores. But since it is set to Any setting it still doesnt make sense, so probably they simply forgot to correct it.

[Bomb Bloke]

Suddenly the spawn bug in TFTD come to mind... Pack a leviathon chock full, with say ten troops and four tanks, and one unit ends up outside the craft up in the air.

[Zombie]

I got to thinking about the spawn points in an alien base yesterday. Since 22 of your troops from a full Avenger of 26 spawn inside those lift modules, only 4 will spawn within the alien base itself. That's hardly a sufficient number to to check anything out.

 

I'm wondering if the Avenger can be "modified" to hold 40 troops. If all 40 soldiers will spawn in an alien base, that should put a crimp on the number of aliens there (hopefully). If not, it would still be an interesting scenario having plenty of "advance scouts" sprinkled throughout the base!

 

I realize that the MapView program will show the spawn point information, but I always like to see something with my own two eyes. Any ideas if this is even possible?

[Bomb Bloke]

Sticking 40 units in an Avenger?

 

The only guy I know who can do that is Scott T. Jones, and his email account bounces back messages. However, I suppose a little research using XcomUtil might reveal the method.

 

For example, if you do use XcomUtil, you might have noticed that it expands the Avenger a bit, and allows you to assign soldiers to your Interceptors. Examining the 'before' and 'after' data files may well show how it's done.

[Zombie]

Well, I'm not really interested in "expanding" the Avenger in the tactical view. That is to say, changing the existing dimensions of the craft. All I want to do is get 40 soldiers into a mission. Is there a way to do this, or do you have to change the dimensions to allow extra soldiers?

[Bomb Bloke]

Heh... Well, if you look at the Avenger, you can see that you can't fit more then the normal amount of soliders in it, right?

 

But, cosmetic issues asside, you are right - the spawn points don't need to be inside the craft itself. You could just change the soldier limit stat for the craft once it was hunted down, then work out the RMP format in order to add the extra spawn points the the map information.

 

On the other hand, thinking again, odds are you don't need to add the extra spawn points, and it would defeat your purpose if you did! :lol: I guess just modifying the craft stats would be enough. If no one beats me to it, I'll see what I can do about that in the next few days or so.

[NKF]

Or if you want to do it manually, you can. It just needs a bit of knowledge of the loc.dat and soldier.dat files. loc.dat to identify your ship, and soldier.dat to actually place the soldiers on the ship. No, actually, it'd be easier to just edit soldier.dat, as you'll already have a few soldiers loaded onto the ship you want - so make sure to save with a couple of soldiers on the ship you want to move everyone to for easy reference.

 

Soldier.dat is 68 bytes per entry, so open it with 68 rows. Rows 5 and 6 will contain the ship information. Find a soldier that is on the ship and copy row 5 and 6. Then just paste this information (or manually enter the data) into the same slots of all the soldiers you want on board and save. And bassoon, you've just crammed more soldiers into a ship than the game normally allows.

 

From the few observations I've had: In UFO, soldiers appear to spawn outside the ship if there are more ships than spawn points in the transport. In TFTD, extra soldiers seem to spawn up high at one point in one corner of the transport. Sort of like multiple soldiers on one node rather than sharing the nodes out in the field.

 

- NKF

[Zombie]

That'll work alright, NKF! Fast, easy and effective. Just the way I like it!

 

I will give that a try then. 40 soldiers crammed on to an Avenger would be a sight though. All those sweaty soldiers together in a craft that should only contain 26, would really tick off those female officers abord. Sexual harassment, anyone?

[Zombie]

Well, I decided to do some more work today on spawn points for HWP's. A while back, NKF mentioned this:

Did these soldiers go AWOL once you returned to the geoscape roster or just during the mission? If it's just during the mission, then the same thing happens when you stock too many HWPs in storage (12+).

 

The last sentence really encouraged my interest. I know for a fact that you cannot get more than 10 HWP's into a base defense mission, simply because 10 HWP's = 40 units. And 40 X-COM units is the max. Also, the only way I thought of originally on how to get 10 HWP's in was to build 2 General Stores. Since 1 General Store holds 9 HWP's, you need a second one to hold the tenth. (Kinda a waste, isn't it)?

 

Then I got to thinking. If I would manufacture HWP's instead of purchasing them, I could cram however many I wanted in there. (There is no "upper limit" for the stores when you manufacture them). Then I could have 40 "units" without building that extra stores. This was important because my skeleton base contains 10 potential HWP spawn points (7 for the General Stores, and 3 for the Living Quarters).

 

Just for giggles, I decided to cram 13 tanks into that one General Stores. I purchased 1 Tank/Rocket Launcher, then transferred 1 Hovertank/Plasma, 6 Hovertank/Launchers and 1 Tank/Laser Cannon to my base. That's a total of 9 HWP's. Since the General Stores were already filled to capacity, I couldn't manufacture the Hovertanks because they require Alien Alloys and/or Elerium. The only tank that doesn't require special materials is the Tank/Laser Cannon. So I went ahead and manufactured 4 Tank/Laser Cannons, for a total of 13 HWP's.

 

Now I sacked those Engineers, dismantled the Workshop and the defensive systems, and hired 1 soldier to allow the base defense mission to begin. When the mission started, I did a quick tally of what showed up. 10 HWP's total, with 1 Tank/Rocket Launcher, 5 Tank/Laser Cannons, 1 Hovertank Plasma and 3 Hovertank Launchers. Low and behold, that one "buggy" spawn point in the General Stores was filled by a HWP! Well, it sorta was filled. Only 1/4 of the HWP spawned, and it didn't show up inside the base "proper". It spawned in the dirt surrounding the General Stores!

 

After I won the mission, I checked my stores to see what was there. Whoa! Just like soldiers, if you have more tanks than the number of HWP spawn points, you lose those "extras". When I mean "lose", I mean they are gone! What I had after the mission was 1 Tank/Rocket Launcher, 5 Tank/Laser Cannons, 1 Hovertank Plasma and 3 Hovertank Launchers. That means 3 Hovertank Launchers were lost to spawning!

 

The conclusion I drew was this:

The game starts spawning tanks first, before equipment. It starts to fill those HWP spawn points in the order those tanks appear in your sell/sack screen. If there are more HWP's than spawn points, those extras don't make it. Say you have x number of tanks in your stores. Only the first 10 tanks will spawn. The remainder, (x-10) will be lost because of the 40 "unit" limit. Very interesting indeed!

[Danial]

I can understand the game limiting 40 units per mission, but to actually lose those above that that don't spawn is a major game flaw!

[Zombie]

It sure seems like it is a flaw all right.

 

I'm thinking that when the programmers declared the variable for the number of units on a mission, they made the range between 1-40. However, the number of soldiers that come back from the mission was probably declared as the same range.

 

Since you can only have 255 soldiers at a base, the number of soldiers variable should be a range between 0 and 255. When the game decides how many soldiers to put back into the base after your successful defense, it only takes what went in minus those that got killed. The programmers should have created another variable to hold the remainder of soldiers that didn't spawn. In this case, it would be 255-40=215. Now, if you are successful in your defense, at least one soldier made it back alive. That 1 soldier should then be added to the "difference" variable, for a total of 216 soldiers. That's the number that should be placed back into the base after the mission.

 

It really looks like a programming oversight to me. Serious? Well, the game still works pretty well without that variable. But for experienced programmers, something like this should never happen.

[Hobbes]

I have never seen missing soldiers as result of base defense. My main base usually holds up to 30 units plus several HWPs and I don't ever recall missing soldiers after an attack. Maybe that flaw only applies to HWPs.

[Danial]

How pissed would you be if you had a full army of like 100 soldiers and then the Aliens invade your base and you end up with only 40!?! :lol:

[Bomb Bloke]

I'm willing to bet it wasn't an oversight... I reckon they knew full well the game would work like that, but decided that no one will notice. Considering what you have to do to put the bug into play, that's more or less acceptable. More or less.

 

Each unit in play links to the database of units owned. When the game ends, your catalog of troopers get updated according to what was left in the field. If a troop isn't found alive, it gets taken off the roster. If a unit gets sent into combat, doesn't fit due to an overflow of units, it won't be found alive and thus the game decides it died once the mission is over.

[Zombie]

I have never seen missing soldiers as result of base defense. My main base usually holds up to 30 units plus several HWPs and I don't ever recall missing soldiers after an attack. Maybe that flaw only applies to HWPs.

 

It applies to both soldiers as well as HWP's.

 

The only time you will see soldiers or tanks missing is when there are more units than spawn points. That means that the base size is rather small. If you have anything more than an Access Lift, a couple of General Stores and a couple of Living Quarters, you are never going to see stuff missing because there are more spawn points than units.

 

Say you have 27 spawn points and 50 soldiers. After filling those 27 points with your soldiers the game drops the remainder (23). Now say you have 13 HWP's but only 10 HWP spawn points. Only 10 tanks will spawn. The other three will not make it.

 

Large base sizes will always allow all of your soldiers to make it, even though the game limits to 40 units.

[Zombie]

I'm sure we all have heard of NKF's 'solo-floater-base-assault-with-pistol-and-handful-of-grenades challenge'. During my spawn point testing I formulated a much more sinister (and difficult) scenario:

 

Zombie's 'X-COM-base-defense-mission-with-20 rookies-and-no-weapons challenge'

 

All you need for this mission is an X-COM base having 20 rookies which is being attacked by the aliens.

 

Restrictions:

1) You must not have any weapons in your base stores when the attack happens.

2) Your rookies must not have any armor.

3) Need I say tanks are not allowed?

4) No wimpy base designs either, you must have at least one Hangar.

 

Purpose: To kill all the aliens and win your base back, starting with 20 rookies and no weapons. Since you cannot kill the aliens to get their weapons to use, you must set a rookie up to get caught within a crossfire. Hopefully, one alien will miss, killing another alien. Now you may pick up any weapon you desire.

 

Once you have picked a location where a crossfire might happen, I'll allow the save-reload immortality until one alien gets killed. Then it's an all-out war where you may pick up any weapons and use them freely.

 

If this scenario seems too difficult, I'll allow you to use a Stun Rod until you get a weapon off an alien.

 

Seriously, I completed this challenge after running one of my spawn point tests without a General Stores module. I wanted to see if winning back your base without weapons is possible. You bet it is! And I did all of this without reloading once. Mission impossible? Almost!

[Stun Grenade]

Everyone loves your results and tests which leads me to an idea...

 

One seperate thread where only Zombie can post his findings and results ... and

one more thread where people comment on them!!!

 

now my 2 quick question threads will be test free lol.... but then again we need to know how to get our answers.. thats where Zombies new thread will come into it!

[NKF]

Heh, it would keep things organised, I'll admit. More like an on-line magazine column of sorts.

 

Zombie, I was actually thinking of a variation of the challenge you've proposed that I'd like to try myself some day.

 

The variation being was to just go out on normal missions with a Skyranger full of soldiers but with one weapon, and one weapon only. This being the weakest possible weapon that can kill whatever alien you're going to face. You have to arm yourself with scavenged weapons. But I guess this is not an impossible or ridiculous challenge. Just incredibly frustrating.

 

 

Here's one I mentioned oh yea moons ago on a previous incarnation of this forum, I think mainly in jest:

 

One grenade, one soldier. Cydonia.

 

The aim being to get as close to the brain as possible and defeat it with your one and only grenade. Can't remember what all the rules where. Has to be done in one sitting - that's a given. Not sure if it was straight from the Avenger to the brain theatre only or whether saving just before going to the interior level counted. Then I wasn't sure if you're allowed to shove the grenade through the ceiling or whether you have to enter the brain theatre. Nonetheless, the idea's absolutely mad. I love it!

 

But don't mind me. I need to find the will and time to actually give these challanges a try.

 

- NKF