Psi Stats

[Zombie]

But why would the game have kneeling values for aliens? The XcomUtil type programs didn't come out till after the game was already programmed and sold. Certainly the two didn't corroborate beforehand, in the odd instance that you could play the aliens. Why would the programmers waste valuable space by giving kneeling heights for the aliens, if the game was never intended to handle that aspect to begin with? It just doesn't make sense.

 

If you can indeed get an alien to kneel via an external program, I would suspect the height of the alien would remain the same. Just because the game forces a sprite change in the aliens appearance, it doesn't automatically mean the height was also modified.

 

However, I must admit it's entirely possible that there is a general equation/number for reducing height when an X-COM unit kneels. Therefore, the game would use the same formula/number to decide an aliens height, in the off chance it does kneel.

 

For instance, say the height of an X-COM soldier is 21. When that unit kneels, it might have a height reduction of 5. The new height would be 21-5= 16. Now let's say you have a Sectoid. It has a standing height of 16. If the Sectoid is kneeling, it should also have a reduction of height by 5. Therefore, the height of a kneeling Sectoid should be 16-5=11. Or, maybe kneeling height = standing height / 2. Either are good possibilities.

 

In this manner, only one height value is necessary, instead of multiple ones for standing and kneeling. This method is much more plausible, wouldn't you say?

[NKF]

Just thought I'd note that there is a lot of wasted space in the data files. The aliens in particular get to share all the same stats as X-Com units, however, they do not use all of the stats that X-Com units use. Unit experience for example is simply filled with rubbish for the aliens. Some units use different stats in different ways. Tanks for example use throwing accuracy as the direction for their turrets.

 

The data files are in fact a huge mess.

 

- NKF

[Bomb Bloke]

One great example is that all units share a stat which always seems to be equal to 171. Work that one out and you're on to something. :lol:

 

Simply put, if an X-Com unit has a kneeling height, then aliens do too. Whether or not that stat is valid is debatable, but given that the game doesn't crash when aliens kneel, I reckon there's something in there.

 

Of course, I'll have to make some more stat lists to actually come up with anything solid.

[Zombie]

171, huh? Well, obviously if all units have that number it's gotta be a constant of some sort. Then the question becomes "Why did the programmers manually give every unit that number, instead of declaring a global constant and just referring to it when necessary"? It's possible that the particular unitref you mention with a value of 171 really isn't a constant at all, but rather a rarely changing stat.

 

Answer me this: what unitref variable does 171 show up in? For instance, if 171 happens in the unitref[X] position, what flanks that number? I.e. what do the unitref[X-1] and unitref[X+1] columns stand for? If you know what the flanking values mean, it may be possible to get a general idea of the middle one. Though, if the unitref file is put together willy-nilly, you might never find the answer. But usually, aren't the stats kinda grouped together?

 

----------

 

Back to the kneeling/standing height debate.

 

The thing that I am questioning is the existance of a unitref value which refers to kneeling height. Like I said before, it is more likely that the game just uses an equation (like kneeling height = standing height / 2, or kneeling height = standing height - 5) to determine kneeling height, rather than creating another variable for that purpose. It would also explain why the game doesn't crash when you can get the aliens to kneel. All the game would have to do is use the same kneeling equation that X-COM soldiers use.

 

Now, I know that the chance of hitting a target is based mostly off of Firing Accuracy, weapon handedness, fatal wounds to the head or shooting arm, and general health status and possibly distance. It is also affected whether or not your soldier is kneeling. However the chance to hit must also be dependant upon the height of the unit getting shot. Kneeling should reduce the height, making the target tougher to hit.

 

At the time when you click fire, the game factors in all this info, and determines the overall base chance to hit. I suspect the game does a simple check to see if a unit is standing. If it is, the game uses the normal height. If the target is kneeling, the game probably determines the height by an equation like I mentioned above. I just have my doubts whether a unitref kneeling variable exists.

[Bomb Bloke]

The 171 value is flanked by two other values which are also unknown. One of these is always 0, the other value is very likely a bitfield (the flags of which are still unknown). Of these, the 171 value looks the easiest to work out.

 

*BB messes around with a unitref file*

 

Ok, a quick look reveals that unitref[49] (as I've suspected all along) stores the height of a unit, for example:

 

12 - Tank

22 - Soldier

21 - Muton

12 - Celatid

10 - Silacoid

 

Unitref[50] looks much like [49], but the values are a bit lower, for those units which could've been able to crouch (keeping in mind that aliens might once have had that ability in an early version).

 

12 - Tank

14 - Soldier

16 - Muton

12 - Celatid

10 - Silacoid

 

If it has legs, the number goes down. Otherwise, it doesn't. You can see that you'd be doing well to make a formula to link those numbers - soldiers are 'taller' then mutons when standing, but crouching mutons are taller then crouching soldiers. That would explain why the stat isn't inferred. Of course, this is only from the observation from one game, but I reckon it's enough to be sure.

 

I get the impression the OSG does not tell you how tall your units are, nor their kneeling heights.

[NKF]

They may just be vestigial.

 

Care for some experimentation? Try fiddling with the values a bit.

 

0 for standing and something really high for kneeling and have a look at how easily these units get hit.

 

- NKF

[Zombie]

Well then. I guess there is a kneeling stat. Excellent explanation there Bomb Bloke! So unitref[49] is the standing height, and unitref[50] is the kneeling height, right?

 

I tried formulating an equation to describe the relationship between standing and kneeling. A simple ratio doesn't work.

Soldier kneeling/height ratio = 14/22 = 0.636363......repeating

Muton kneeling/standing ratio = 16/21 = 0.761904.....repeating

 

A simple difference yields 8 for a soldier and 5 for the Muton. So that won't work either. However, if you split the aliens and soldiers into different classes, then all soldiers will be 8 units shorter and all aliens will be 5 units shorter.

 

Could you get some numbers for the other "kneeling" aliens? Like Sectoids, and possibly Chryssalids. We could then see if 5 is a constant or a variable.

 

You are correct, the OSG doesn't give X-COM soldier standing or kneeling heights.

 

NKF: I have a good game where I can test out the height value against the base chance to hit firing accuracy. I'll give it a shot this weekend.

[Bomb Bloke]

I said you wouldn't find a rule to work out teh relation of the standing height to the kneeling height, didn't I?

 

Ok, I've gone over some save files. The Male Civilian is missing, I'll add it when I find a map with some.

 

Standing Kneeling Unit
23       16       Reaper
23       16       Sectopod
22       14       Soldier
21       16       Female Civilian
21       16       Chryssalid
21       16       Muton
21       16       Floater
20       15       Etheral
18       18       Snakeman
18       18       Zombie
16       12       Sectoid
15       15       Cyberdisc
12       12       Celatid
12       12       Tank
10       10       Silacoid

 

Had an interesting time creating a Zombie. Found myself a Snakeman base, then found a Chrys. However, he didn't want to co-operate. Had to chase it around for a few turns to get it to attack. When it did, it went overboard, and killed the Zombie too! Must have an autofire on that claw attack.

 

However, when I found the critters again, it was indeed a Zombie I found, not a couple of Chrys's. Probably some script forcing things there. Doubt I've seen anything like it before.

[Zombie]

Thank you for that table Mr Bomb Bloke. It was very much appreciated!

 

I had a chance to look through those numbers to see if an equation could be applied to get a kneeling height. Before I begin, I have to admit that the kneeling height might just be an arbitrary number.

 

However, I DID find a relational argument which determines kneeling height from standing height. You underestimate my mathematical prowess and keen observational skills. I'm not just a pretty face, you know!

 

I just started pulling numbers and lumping them into categories based on standing height. After that, I found the difference between the two numbers.

 

Standing       Kneeling       Diff
  23             16            7
  21             16            5
  20             15            5
  16             12            4

Do you see a factor of 4 involved in the last three rows? I did, almost immediately. And a factor of 3 in the top row (the 2x2 walking units).That makes sense because the 2x2 units shouldn't be able to kneel as far as the normal units can.

 

Using a bit of algebra (If you want the actual steps, PM me) I found a general eqaution relating the two numbers:

 

KH = SH - (SH / 4)   For the normal 1x1 aliens and Female Civilian
KH = SH - (SH / 3)   For the 2x2 aliens and X-COM soldiers

Where KH = "kneeling height", and SH = "standing height"

Now, these equations come really close to the actual kneeling heights you give. Because division is involved, and the game tends only to use the actual integer part for calculations, there is a slight error introduced due to rounding. All in all, it does show how the kneeling height could be calculated from the standing height.

 

- Zombie

[Danial]

One thing I've always wondered was what the heights translate to in real life!

 

One thing I know for fact is that the maximum height for any unit is 24, because that's the height of the ceiling in the game.

 

Now, if you base it off an X-COM soldier, it makes all the other units really short, because they're all less than 22.

 

If you base it off an average ceiling height of, say, 9ft, then it makes the Muton almost 8ft tall, which is bigger than I'd picture it, but not unreasonable. It also makes humans over 8ft tall, which IS unreasonable.

 

The other option, is to make an assumption that 18 = 1.8m or something along those lines, which gives reasonable results... for the aliens. However, it makes the civilians and soldiers over 2m tall!!

 

So either way you look at it, with short aliens, or tall humans, it still translates to the aliens having the advantage because they have a larger target to fire at!!

[Zombie]

You are looking at things in the wrong frame of reference, Danial. Who says the height of a base ceiling is 9 ft? There is nothing preventing the programmers from deciding that the height of a ceiling is way less than this.

 

The heights that are given are relative, meaning they are based off something. I just assume that a soldier with a game height of 22 translates into 6 feet, or 1.8288 meters. Basing all the other game heights returns reasonable results:

             Game       Relative (m)       Relative (ft)
Ceiling      24            2.00               6.55
Reaper       23            1.91               6.27
Sectopod     23            1.91               6.27
Soldier      22            1.83               6.00
Civilian     21            1.75               5.73
Chryssalid   21            1.75               5.73
Muton        21            1.75               5.73
Floater      21            1.75               5.73
Ethereal     20            1.66               5.45
Snakeman     18            1.50               4.91
Zombie       18            1.50               4.91
Sectoid      16            1.33               4.36
Cyberdisc    15            1.25               4.09
Celatid      12            1.00               3.27
Tank         12            1.00               3.27
Silacoid     10            0.83               2.73

 

As you can see, all the aliens (except the Reaper and the Sectopod) are shorter than an X-COM soldier. Interesting results, though. The ceiling height is rather low (6 1/2 feet). That doesn't leave much head-room.

On the flip-side of the coin is the tank measuring in at 3 1/4 feet tall. That's still a reasonable number, as tanks are unmanned. Even the 2 3/4 foot tall Silacoid is acceptable.

[Bomb Bloke]

You could say that the height stat is more of a chance to hit stat.

 

To summarize, your soldiers are easier to hit then aliens. However, if you crouch your soldiers, they lose a quarter of their hit chance.

 

That seems about right... I think. I've seen soldiers have the ground shot out from under their feet due to extremely close misses when they crouch. That just doesn't happen when they stand.

 

I'll take a look and see if the values have any other uses, though. They might affect where weapons should be rendered maybe.

[Zombie]

If you crouch a soldier, they lose more than 1/3 of their hit chance.

(6-3.82=2.18, 2.18/6 = 0.36333...) That's closer to 40%.

 

But it does make sense that a crouching soldier is a smaller target than a Cyberdisc. I mean, they are both pretty tough to hit, but the soldier is only 1x1, while the Cyberdisc is 2x2. Even if your shot misses the Cyberdisc section you were aiming at, it might hit the other section. That's nice to know.

[Bomb Bloke]

Oops, my bad, it's a quarter for most everything else (all those units which can't actually crouch).

[Danial]

You are looking at things in the wrong frame of reference, Danial. Who says the height of a base ceiling is 9 ft? There is nothing preventing the programmers from deciding that the height of a ceiling is way less than this.

I wasn't basing that off an XCOM Base, I was basing it off a Terror Site, with its earthly buildings, which generally have 9 or 10ft ceilings. For some reason, I've always pictured Mutons and Ethereals as being taller then humans.

[Bomb Bloke]

Enforcer makes Mutons rather large.

 

My bet is that the programmers just wanted to give the aliens a statistical advantage, and figured no one would ever know. Without a look into the data files, that would indeed have been the case - OSG doesn't list the height of humans.

[Danial]

I was thinking the same thing too, damn cheating Aliens!!

[FullAuto]

I've always pictured Mutons and Ethereals as being taller then humans

 

You'd think so, wouldn't you? Imagine being intimidated by a bunch of shortarse aliens.

[Danial]

Another thing I just thought of:

 

If you use the 18 = 1.8m conversion I mentioned, a ceiling of 24 equals exactly 8ft, which, I just measured, is the height of the ceiling in my unit.

 

I guess a conversion of realHeight = gameHeight / 3 would also be acceptable, where "realHeight" is in feet. This would simply mean:

 

realHeight = 24 / 3 = 8ft

 

 

Note #1: For the persnickety among us, in the first equation, I was using a conversion of 2.5cm per inch, rather than the more accurate 2.54cm. For this reason, I think the latter conversion is more suitable.

 

Note #2: Ceiling standards must 8 or 9ft, rather than the 9 or 10ft I stated earlier.

[Danial]

Using the 2nd equation gives these results for the Aliens:

 

3' 4" Silacoid
4'    Celatid
5'    Cyberdisc
5' 4" Sectoid
6'    Snakeman
6'    Zombie
6' 8" Ethereal
7'    Floater
7'    Muton
7'    Chryssalid
7' 8" Reaper
7' 8" Sectopod

... which I think are the most suitable

 

All this means is that humans are left out, leaving the Aliens with the upper hand when it comes to targeting.

[Zombie]

Historically speaking, aliens were always thought of being much shorter than humans. You heard of the saying "Little Green Men" before, right? The supposed aliens found at the Roswell crash site were have said to been 4-4 1/2 feet tall. As the years went on, eyewitnesses claimed to have seen larger and larger aliens. Some reported aliens which were 8-10 feet! This is most likely due to embelishment or exaggeration.

 

If one were base the height of the X-COM aliens off of historical accounts, the Sectoids were to be 4-4 1/2 feet. Assuming a height of 6 feet for the average soldier, the in-game Sectoid comes to 4.36 feet. Coincidence? Me thinks not. The programmers/designers really did their research!

[Danial]

Except for the fact that all housing and bases then have a ceiling height of 6' 6", which, to me, is just rediculous. If you look at the sprites of a Soldier and Sectoid next to each other, you can see that there's not actually that much of a difference in height. The Sectoid is 87% of the Soldier's height, which would make it 5' 2" anyways...

 

Besides, every "report" on Roswell gives different heights. Some say 3-4ft, others say 4-5ft, and I've even read one that said 5-6ft! So I doubt anyone could "research" such things accurately

[Zombie]

I can't argue with you Danial, those points are well taken. A ceiling height of 6 1/2 feet is kinda stupid, especially with a 6ft high soldier.

 

But I have to say this about the alien activity around Roswell NM in 1947: The supposed aliens were in actuality "anthropomorphic test dummies" that the United States Air Force was testing in conjunction with high-altitude balloon research, and possible precursor ejection seats. Those dummies were not full sized adult figures (like the automobile test dummies of today), because of weight restrictions.

 

The 3-4 foot reports are obvious errors. The US millitary couldn't use the full sized 95th percentile dummies (5 1/2 - 6 foot), because they were too large and heavy to use with those balloons. A 4 1/2 foot dummy dressed in a flight suit, still steaming from the descent through the cold atmosphere, could be mistaken for an alien.

 

See, the problem with relative heights is that we can base them off of anything we want. A ceiling height of 8 feet would make soldiers equal to 7 feet 4 inches. I'd say that is pretty rediculous too. Civilians being 7 foot tall? Say it ain't so!

[Danial]

Yeah. That's why I generally leave Humans out of my workings

 

The game seems to handle Humans and Aliens differently in so many respects that there's no reason why "height" would be any different. As BB pointed out, it's probably just to give the Aliens that slight advantage in the Battlescape... to counter for the fact that they can't crouch perhaps?? How much additional accuracy do you get from crouching? The difference between 22 and 18 height is only 18%, so it's not too much of an advantage.

 

EDIT: Just checked an older thread, and it seems crouching adds 15%, so 18% is fairly close.

[NKF]

The kneeling multiplier is 1.15 (or +15% if you will), so basically kneeling negate's the alien's height advantage then? Hmm. So the aliens are pre-kneeled but don't get the kneeling advantage. That's curiously good to know.

 

I'd just like to point out at this juncture that we've suddenly gone from discussion psionics and are now discussing the intricacies of kneeling.

 

- NKF