Unlimited Ammo

[Bomb Bloke]

I kinda miss thread descriptions. Would've used "bangbangbangbangbang" for this one.

 

Anyway, I was thinking about the unlimited ammo thing. For those not in the know, the intention with this game is that while you will need to reload weapons, you won't actually need to bring along any clips - you simply don't run out. There's an exception for the heavier weapons (among other limitations), but even the guys carrying those will have backup-side arms.

 

I read around a bit to find that as far as the original goes, there are two camps: those who don't like having to constantly put resources into ammo production, and those who, once they've had enough time to scavenge/build an initial stockpile, have far more clips then they'll ever use. These seemed to relate directly to the groups of players who like the new system and those who don't.

 

Now it strikes me that this may have a lot to do with whether people are playing the DOS or CE versions of the older games - If memory serves, under DOS, if a clip is unloaded at mission end you keep it, otherwise you don't. Under CE, you lose all clips that've been used in any amount, and keep all full ones.

 

Not that I knew these rules at the time, but I do recall that laser weapons seemed a lot more valuable to me in the DOS game then they did when I moved to CE.

 

So yeah, I'm interested in seeing if these observations hold up in a poll.

[EBM]

Option 4. I like having the possibility of running out, though that didn't actually happen often in UFO Defense/Enemy Unknown for me, especially when lasers came into service. In other games in the genre like Apocalypse or UFO: Extraterrestrials, for example, running out of ammo was a distinct possibility in some missions. I enjoy having to carefully conserve ammo or loot corpses when the reserves start running low.

 

But never having to worry about running out? That's just offensive.

[ShadowBlade]

Option 3.

 

I believe the act of reloading is tactically far more important than the threat of running out of ammo altogether. You're far more likely to get shot in the ass due to an untimely need to reload than exhausting your clip supply. For me, in UFO Defense and TFTD, clips were okay, but just an element of book-keeping. I don't remember ever running out of conventional ammunition, with troopers carrying a loaded weapon and a couple of spare clips.

 

Ultimately, the important thing is that, in XCOM:EU, the types of ammo that actually matter, that did tend to run out (i.e. missiles and likely grenades) will be limited.

 

I enjoy having to carefully conserve ammo or loot corpses when the reserves start running low.

 

I get that, but X-COM isn't a survival horror game. You command a specialized organization with powerful backers. Clips themselves were either dirt cheap (early Terran weapons), unnecessary (lasers) or aliens dropped them like mad (plasma). If you had to conserve ammo that much and/or loot corpses for it, then that's likely the result of a gross yet easily-avoidable logistics mistake, or a conscious player choice.

[EBM]

I believe the act of reloading is tactically far more important than the threat of running out of ammo altogether. You're far more likely to get shot in the ass due to an untimely need to reload than exhausting your clip supply.

 

Perhaps, but I see little point in a reload function when there's no limit to your supply. And how is the reloading actually handled? Do the soldiers just automatically do it immediately after running out? If so, there's even less point when a TU system is no longer used.

 

I get that, but X-COM isn't a survival horror game. You command a specialized organization with powerful backers. Clips themselves were either dirt cheap (early Terran weapons), unnecessary (lasers) or aliens dropped them like mad (plasma). If you had to conserve ammo that much and/or loot corpses for it, then that's likely the result of a gross yet easily-avoidable logistics mistake, or a conscious player choice.

 

I'd argue that there are elements of survival horror tied in, but it's not the focus.

 

As already mentioned, running low on ammo was hardly a common occurance in X-COM. Due to the way the game generally plays out there is often little need to even load a different magazine than the one a rifle started with. Player choice is a sizable factor as well since I often delay the use of lasers in order to actually keep using rifles and pistols that require a reload. Plasma doesn't matter since I don't use it.

[NKF]

In some of the recent games I've played that involved a reloading element, both turn based and real-time, the reloading process cost action points or rendered your character immobile or unable to shoot until the weapon is reloaded. Even if ammo was unlimited, that still renders you defenseless for a short period of time. In that way, it handicaps the unlimited ammo so you can't just stick your character in a corner and shoot and shoot until the mission is over. Apocalypse's recharging system wasn't bad too, with the recharge and fire rates being different.

 

I'm on the fence about clip or infinite ammo weapons as they both have their pros and cons. All I ask is they come up with a system that is fun, meaningful and not give the AI any handicaps when it comes to the limited special ammo like the rockets. That is to say, if you get a finite supply, so should they. I get cheesed off in games (some really good ones too!) where the enemy can shoot some super powerful long range weapon continuously and never runs out of rounds.

 

- NKF

[Jman4117]

4, totally. Only downside I really had with it in the original game was the extra micromanagement needed to make sure you have a constant supply of clips. I'm sure that is easily manageable to program into a modern game. Just a buy/manufacture new ammo toggle in settings somewhere.

[Pete]

I chose 3 because it's closest to the option in my head that's not really covered in the poll

 

I can see why they removed clips. You only make the mistake of not having enough rifle/pistol ammo once and tend to remember in subsequent playthroughs. Then it really is just a logistics game - you're never so low on cash or items to sell that you can't afford ammo - if you had nothing but a blaster launcher and no rifle clips you'd rather sell that to equip all your men than take on a battleship with one weapon

 

I suspect that the deal will be that alien tech (not your lasers of course, assuming they're in the game) does have ammo as has already been confirmed, and that you would likely lose part of a turn to reloading, which would make it much more tactical given your limited option of ducking and reloading or standing and reloading (guessing here of course). If they didn't capitalise on that, then it would be a real shame but at least you would have an "uh-oh" moment when you have to switch to pistols to take on Chrysalids

 

I suspect all these questions and more will be answered soon enough.

[Space Voyager]

I chose 3 because it's closest to the option in my head that's not really covered in the poll

 

But, master, you can edit the poll!

 

Anyway, I went for no. 4. I'm ok with a new element (Handwaveium) that gives alien or hybrid or whatever weapons unlimited ammo, but as far as normal weapons go, we know how limited it is. It might be weird having ammo though as firing animations are on all the time of the turn, but ammo count would go down only at the time of the actual firing.

 

I'm ok with unlimited ammo though, not a major problem for me. I doubt missions will e-last so long that ammo should become a crisis.

[Bomb Bloke]

I gather that suppression fire uses ammo at an increased rate, so there must be some penalty for reloading. I'd assume that it counts for one of the two actions you can typically take per turn, or however it is that the action system works. Wouldn't surprise me if there's a related perk.

 

What I'm really calling into question is the idea of carrying around unlimited ammo to reload with. Straight after researching a fancy new alien-tech gun, you can field it with no need to conserve its power - unless the new weapon is worse against certain aliens then the starting ones are, you won't ever have a need to fall back to them unless the soldier carrying it gets blown up in an especially spectacular manner or something. They're also discarding the consideration of trading mobility for more shots this way - you can't have someone carry around more rockets, for eg, unless they're 1) a veteran 2) actually carrying the rocket launcher.

 

Hmm. Actually, that might be a good use for the "support" class - being able to hand out extra "consumable" items to other nearby troopers.

[Pete]

I thought there was unlimited ammo on the starting weapons and clips on the alien weapons?

 

I rather like the idea of running out of ammon on a plasma rifle as yet another Chrysalid rounds the corner and you have to resort to a pistol

[ShadowBlade]

I believe it's been said in a couple of interviews that reloading is an action, which is essentially half a turn. That makes it more time-consuming than it was in the original. So depending on the immediate context, that's half a turn that could've otherwise been spent on a more useful action and, if untimely enough, could be lethal.

 

I understand that the notion of limited ammo, even if it was mostly an illusion in the original unless you handicapped yourself, encourages the player to conserve it and not go Rambo on every mission. However, I believe the system in XCOM:EU will still encourage that kind of conservation, since you'll have to manage the reloads so that you're not caught off-guard (i.e. with a Muton in your face and the bullet that'd save you not in the chamber).

 

You're still managing a resource, but in this case, ironically enough, it's a more pressing one (takes up half your man's turn as opposed to what, 10 TUs or less?) that requires your attention more often (I doubt the game will have you reload only once every 20-30 firings). I think it'll be a good change.

[Bomb Bloke]

Funny thing, that. Reloading does take less time then your average snap/auto-shot in the older titles. Still, under this new system, I suspect I'll find myself doing it a lot more often as I can't really see the sole cost of a little bit of time as "prohibitive". It could really stand to slow down gameplay dramatically, just as you say, unless the aliens really press the attack instead of waiting for you to come to them.

 

@Pete: "Standard" alien weapons will also come with a free life time supply of clips, or at least, I've found nothing to suggest otherwise (I'd assume alien launchers are subject to limitations similar to those used with conventional ones). You certainly won't be able to scavenge for more mid-mission, and I'm fairly well convinced by this point there's no mid-battle inventory management at all.

[Pete]

@Shadowblade - I'm pretty much hoping for exactly what you described

 

@BB - I've watched a lot of vids and read various interviews today and yes, I'm pretty sure there's no in-mission inventory.

[ShadowBlade]

Funny thing, that. Reloading does take less time then your average snap/auto-shot in the older titles. Still, under this new system, I suspect I'll find myself doing it a lot more often as I can't really see the sole cost of a little bit of time as "prohibitive". It could really stand to slow down gameplay dramatically, just as you say, unless the aliens really press the attack instead of waiting for you to come to them.

 

I didn't mean to imply gameplay would slow down due to reloading. While we don't know the specifics, we know the game will be more dynamic and faster-paced, with more meaningful decisions per turn. And reloading your weapon's just one of many equally costly actions you've to juggle in an ever-changing combat environment, so I don't think you'll have the time to reload much more often than necessary just to keep your clips full (like you would in any modern FPS) unless you want your team to largely stay hunkered down and not firing that often.

 

I guess it's hard to explain what I'm imagining, but even if your ammo supply is unlimited, they've taken reloading from its cheap, harmless origin, made it meaningful and integrated it into an action economy we'll have to very consciously manage in every mission. Add to that the certainty that aliens will be smarter than in 1994/5 and you have an interesting cocktail. I can't say how it'll pan out in practice, but it has a lot of theoretical potential. Most people seem to stop at "unlimited ammo" and forget to consider the rest.

[Sgt. Strike]

Personally, I would like to see the early weapons with clips, and alien ones. But advanced weapons, and lasers, should not have clips. And it should be, the early weapons, have a good to awesome amount of ammo per clip, and they should be able to be reused, sort of like in Jagged Alliance 2, where you can combine clips. And have spare to refill your weapon. And ammo types should be stackable, as well. And there should be add-ons to the weapons, all weapons, as well.

[Kret]

I'm going for #3, while it would be more realistic to have limited ammo for all weapons it has a very low impact on game play from my experience. I remember only 1 TBS game ("Incubation") that I've played where I was actively checking shots left on each soldier’s weapon, resorting to camping at spawn locations with bayonet equipped weapons to conserve ammo.

It would be interesting to see the suppression fire consuming double the ammo making it a dangerous option if used excessively.

[Hobbes]

The poll needs a 5th option - I'l wait to try the new system and see how it goes...

[ShadowBlade]

The poll needs a 5th option - I'l wait to try the new system and see how it goes...

 

I agree. As with many features, It ultimately comes down to that. Can't conclude whether unlimited ammo is a good or bad change until we see it in action.

[Bomb Bloke]

That'd fall under "I don't have an opinion", but measuring the size of that group isn't any fun.

 

I guess it's hard to explain what I'm imagining, but even if your ammo supply is unlimited, they've taken reloading from its cheap, harmless origin, made it meaningful and integrated it into an action economy we'll have to very consciously manage in every mission.

"Cheap and harmless"? Originally, excessive reloading meant that you might not be able to use that gun on the next mission at all. You had to pick and choose how often you were going to deploy certain weapons until your clip supply stabilised; you couldn't just hand out the best guns to everyone all the time until the late game.

 

(Not that we'll be doing that with the new game anyway, as we won't be bringing along many troopers in the first place and different classes will be using entirely different weapons - maybe it'll affect sidearms more.)

 

But you get my point - when in the middle of a fire-fight, yeah, sure, you make the call depending on the amount of bullets you think you're about to use versus the risk of wasting an action to ensure you'll have them ready. But when there's no immediate threat, "half a turn" seems a very low penalty compared to the ~half turn (~quarter, if you emptied the first clip fully) + restocking time + (usually) elerium you're paying in the original. It makes sense to keep a full clip armed whenever possible when those extra costs are discarded.

[Hobbes]

That'd fall under "I don't have an opinion", but measuring the size of that group isn't any fun.

 

On the original game ammo management is important during Geoscape at the beginning when you have buy/transfer it with your limited funds. When you research alien weapons - then it become just another chore - check ammo level, buy/manufacture/transfer/etc. So at that level it becomes almost completely irrelevant during gameplay.

During Tactical the main issue regarding players is ammo level and reloading - but the number of clips that you'll actually need to win combat is usually about half since players will cram their Skyranger with as many units as possible to increase their firepower. This will depend also on the skill and any other special moves you are planning (i.e. nuking an Alien Base with Blaster Bombs). And plasma weapons further reduce this need since there will be plenty of Heavy Plasmas laying on the ground.

On the new game clips are apparently removed from Geoscape - which is good, since it means less micromanaging at that level.

On you'll need to worry about ammo level and reloading as well, regardless of endless clips or not. So the factor should be the ammunition required to complete a mission - you have a much smaller squad (and the aliens should have one too) so your firepower will be much limited. Plus, it seems that the AI may activate extra aliens to attack your units (the number of AIiens isn't preset). So here the number of clips is important since it can severely limit your squad's ability to win a fight and since you have so few soldiers the moment they ran out of ammo or start suffering heavy losses it will be a massacre.

Thus, if all of the above verifies I think that unlimited ammo on the renewed version may well be a good idea - you still have to check for ammo level and reload but you won't be completely dead from running out of ammo clips. I think it can already be pretty brutal (and frustrating) to lose half your squad and then discover that you don't have enough ammo to win the mission and have to retreat to the extraction point.

 

Bomb Bloke, are you happy now?

[NKF]

Oh to have melee combat. Punches, kicks, knee-to-the-groin, restraining, throwing the enemy's gun off target at close range, shoving, throwing, whacking an enemy with a broken chair, smashing a vase over the head, swinging an unconscious sectoid, tazering, stabbing, tearing a drain pipe off the wall, etc. Wouldn't matter if you were working with limited ammo supply in this case, or unlimited ammo with a jammed gun that will take a few turns to unjam. That kind of 'limited' unlimited ammo I'd like to work with.

 

- NKF

[Hobbes]

Oh to have melee combat. Punches, kicks, knee-to-the-groin, restraining, throwing the enemy's gun off target at close range, shoving, throwing, whacking an enemy with a broken chair, smashing a vase over the head, swinging an unconscious sectoid, tazering, stabbing, tearing a drain pipe off the wall, etc. Wouldn't matter if you were working with limited ammo supply in this case, or unlimited ammo with a jammed gun that will take a few turns to unjam. That kind of 'limited' unlimited ammo I'd like to work with.

 

- NKF

 

And, of course, we need to have Laser Pistols and all sorts of weird gizmos for NKF to explore all of their possibilities... plenty of them

[Wintermist]

I liked clips because it was yet another part of the management. Take away stuff all the time and we end up with a game that has one button. "Attack enemy." and you can watch your soldiers act it out on their own.

[Pete]

So far it seems they've removed some elements in favour of others so I'm hopeful that this feature won't be missed too much.

 

That said we'll have to wait and see to be sure.

[silencer_pl]

Actually I never had problems with ammo though reloads were necessary it wasn't that much of a problem. Not having clips here you can make battlefield more spectacular.