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Colony Crusades!


The Veteran

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Firstly I'd like to know what all of you find is the hardest (or least enjoyable!) mission to play in terror from the deep.

Then I want to talk to people who are having trouble with a particular mission (not necesarily one of the poll choices). So Iggy being my first customer, everyone feel free to come and tell me your problems. If it sounds like a particularly tricky mission then I'll be more than happy to give it a go for you!

Once you've discussed it here send any troublesome terror misions or beastly bases to me at pantlessavenger@freemail.com.au in a zip file containing all of the information from your saved game.

 

Iggy... The Crusader will see you now...

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I am yet to beat an alien colony mission to be honest. At least, not without XComutil's aid....

 

 

Ive done a couple of artifact sites, and quite frankly those come in 2nd for me :)

 

And finally ship terror missions, because of the damned hiding alien cowards :P!!!!!

 

Yeah, i rather dislike the new 2-staged missions :)

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On my cruise ship, I've got a saved one that's close to the start of it, and one that's a little advanced, into the level that is, and is kinda tricky, aka I'm stuck at that part. Tell me which one you want and I'll send it to you. If you don't reply by when I'm ready to send maybe I'll just send them both.
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I would probally say that artifact sites are hardest I can do them but sometimes I have to play it a few times because staight away Tentuculats start homing in like sharks to blood :P and because usually there are a few I can't take them down quickly enough

Whereas with alien colonys you have time to spread out and set charges etc.

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Ah! Looks like I was too slow Iggy! I'll get started as soon as I get home. I'll let you know how it goes some time this evening and by the time I turn in for the night I should be able to tell you how long I need.

And anyone else who sends me save files I want the one from the very beginning of the mission...

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Damn Iggy... What have you been doing for the last four months? Your soldiers are appauling and you have sonic rifles? What happened to the cannons! I'm doing my best but I need time... There are six alien casualties none human so far but I have one guy who is pretty much suicidal. He went from having 100 morale to being under alien control... You have one good soldier but the rest are pretty shocking... Still I'm doing what I can with him. If the psycho doesn't shoot him next turn which he is trying desperately to do. I think there's a civvie I can't save from him as it is...
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I'm voting for ship missions. Blasted passenger ships, in my game, there's always a triscene in the shower section... how the heck did it get in there, when the door is only one space wide? :P

 

Heh, hey Veteran, are you just looking for challenges or something? :) If you don't mind, this conversation is not particularly useful (I refer to the one between you and Iggy), forum-wise. I think itwould be good for you to mention a bit more detail. For example, you say sonic rifles blah, sonic cannons yeah! That's a good bit of detail. But when you say appalling, in what respect do you mean? How can Iggy (and I, hahaha) improve?

 

Just some ideas. Feel free to ignore. :)

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This is my first time playing TFTD so I'm getting used to the research tree. Right now I'm researching MC Reader, and next I'll get to the cannons.

 

EDIT: Actually, I thought I had two good soldiers: Uta Hafner(?)72 tu, 58% acc, 50(?) reactions, and the other one 68 tu, 64% acc. I had some others that I was working on but they had to be sacrificed in an unfortunate colony incident.

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Ever compare the sonic pistol against the heavy gauss? Check their stats and everything, and you'd actually be quite amazed.

 

Anything, anything that can do better than the heavy gauss, and still be one handed, is good in my book. Oh, and plenty of sonic pulsers and maybe a vibroblade. The inner level of the colony is so cramped, the vibroblades really start shining.

 

Granted, I'd probably still research the sonic cannon a lot earlier than the sonic blasta or sonic pistol. I like the pistol and blasta-rifle a lot, but I'd rather have the cannons just in case lobstermen show up.

 

It's funny how they always seem to show up shortly after I get my first sonic gun researched. I wonder if sonic weapons encourage lobstermen to appear a lot faster? Nah, probably not. Coincidence is the most probably culprit here.

 

---

 

I haven't played TFTD for some time, or rather, I haven't played that a far into the game recently, but I guess the missions that I hate the most would be any of the two parter missions.

 

I just wish there was more variety with the liner missions. Maybe a few random rooms, and maybe random furniture just for variety.

 

On the other hand, preset maps are nice in that you eventually get a pretty good idea of where an alien likes to hide. On the liners, those showers for one, and the kitchen coldroom, which has horrible line of sight problems, ooh, and in those alcoves in the room just at the entrance facing the Triton's hatch. In the alcoves, I frequently find an alien carrying a useless heavy thermic lance and four pulsers.

 

And in the topside portion of colonies, you know where a group of tentaculats and other aliens will be hiding (in the north tower) so you can always send a DPL torp into the dark. Then there are plenty of tasoth around the exit pads with more DPL launchers as a matter of fact. What a good place to get a few more kills and take out the aliens' big guns.

 

Methinks I should give TFTD another shot some time soon. Maybe I'll encourage a few colonies eh? :P

 

- NKF

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It's funny how they always seem to show up shortly after I get my first sonic gun researched. I wonder if sonic weapons encourage lobstermen to appear a lot faster? Nah, probably not. Coincidence is the most probably culprit here.

 

'S funny you should say that....I've always thought there was some kind of link between the state of your research and which aliens have turned up. In UFO, for instance, the moment I get power armour, Snakemen start to show up. Would be interesting to know if anyone (bar the dev team) could confirm it.

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Ufa Hafner... Not sure but that may be the one soldier I'm having luck with...

Right to point out firstly what I'd have done differently in your game Iggy I would research sonic cannons straight away. Forget the weaker guns as you don't need them to use the strongest straight away.

Also a must have is sonic pulsers, the grenades. Just like the alien grenades were a great item early on in UFO the same goes for the pulsers. As soon as these weapons are done my personal preference is usually armour but in TFTD you can't straight away so I'd go for whatever you feel like. Learning about your enemy is always a good way to go but the main priority is to become a good attacker.... If you have poor weapons then people will die before they get good at anything and you'll never be able to research the better things because you won't be able to complete the mission. Another thing to remember to preserve your soldiersa lives is that if you're researching say the sonic cannon and shoot down a sub before it's done... LEAVE THE CRAFT! Wait for the cannon research to be finished and then launch on the next mission. If you down an enemy craft but do't attend it it still counts as a won mission so it isn't necessary to go there...

 

Now onto the mission for those of you who are interested...

It's a passenger liner so the Triton is completely boxed in and the troops have a little more cover than they would do on a transport liner... But that's where the luck ends. The first kill was a guy who went to the right side of the Triton, (top left on the screen) killed a Tasoth behind the steps onto the deck in his second turn. I moved the other two soldiers I'm using into the door directly opposite the tritons hatch. In there they found one civvie in the room with the boxes and another in the top right room. I had them cover the corridor and the door. Next turn after the Tasoth dies I notice that a BioDrone has appeared seven odd meters in front of my two guys. This is the kind of move that needs planning... I must say I'm proud of this too...

In a situation like this you know the alien has a reaction shot and BioDrones have 360 vision so will retaliate even to a miss. The only cover I had was the boxes so I thought about how to use them... I notice one of them which is full height so I move my shooter behind that and take one step back to put the Drone in my LOS but not my LOF. Then shoot the wall behind it, retal fire hits the box and the other guy squeezes off a hit with his rifle. Knowing it takes three hits to kill this guy, unless I had got a really lucky shot in the first time, I had him look for a grenade instead... Thanks Iggy, no such luck! But I notice barrels next to the Drone. One shot, three barrels, One Drone... Second shot goes for the barrel, missed it but hit another! The barrels explode and take out the Drone, the Drone in turn exploding and taking out one Tasoth a deck above it and (somehow) Another one on the top deck outside the dining area! Unfortunatlely the blast also took out the two barrels near my guys and the civ. Amazingly they're both fine and so is the civilian... I'll never know how as he was even closer to the barrels than my men...

Anyway that's another turn down and with what remained of the first guys movement he hobbled through a hole in the wall into the first portside cabin. The other guy advanced but only barely and the Tasoth killer moved up onto the deck but stopped at the top of the stairs, no TUs.

Another turn and I had both guys inside move up the port corridor. The guy on top moved down the stairs and spots a Tasoth with just enough TUs to shoot. He was a fair way away but scored a glancing blow. Tasoth turns and shoots the wall and the door into the very rear of the ship. The guy flattens himself against the forward most wall and waited for the aliens next move...

Meanwhile... Everyone in the Triton was ordered to drop their weapons after panicking on the first alien turn. All of them dropped guns but one who had gone beserk again this turn... In the corridor the guy with the barrel shot checked down the corridor leading across the ship but didn't move down it. There was no point checking the small room behind this corridor as that was where the BioDrone came from... He then moved up to the steps to the dining area but only made it half way. The other coward who hid behind the box was not surprisingly still on 100 morale so no problem there. He kept checking the rooms to port and the showers. End turn.

This turn the guy who failed to kill the Tasoth previously now made his way forward down the infested coridor. Not a wise move? Anyhow the aliens were all gone so I moved him into the corridor I had the killer check last turn. He waited there with a loaded gun and remains there still. The guy on the Triton finally stopped panicking long enough to drop his gun and the two soldiers to port moved to the foot of the steps to guard a civ.

Anyway, that's where it is now but I have a funny feeling that the coward may try something soon as he hasn't even been attacked by the aliens yet... Just a hunch but time will tell...

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And here we go with the update folks and it's good news all the way showing that a little overnight break does good! I'm stuck again now so I'll tell you how I got there...

The good news is that the guy with 100 morale kept that morale and managed to step araound the civilian far enough to see another Tasoth up the stairs stnding by the bar in the dining area. He takes a shot, it's a hit, then he steps to the side to let the other guy go. Amazingly the second guy approaches the steps, lets off his shot (the TUs of these guys only allows one each unless they barely move at all) and it hits and kills... I'm happy!

Meanwhile the guy in the corridor the other side of the ship pokes his head out and looks down to the front of the boat. No alien so he makes a run for the cabin opposite, stopping just long enough at the door to find and finish off the Tasoth he'd already had one shot at. Then he ducked inside to check the room. All the cabins were clear so far and this one was no exception.

Also I forgot to mention a fourth guy as he's done nothing of significance so far but walk about a bit but I sent him in with the original two to the port side of the ship. He was the guy who found the civ in the back room with the compartments... Anyhow after the explosion from the BioDrone he went up onto the portside observation deck. That's how I found the dead Tasoth up there... After this I often forgot to use him but when I did I moved him forward along the port side deck. I think he was probably just a little way back from the end of the dance hall when I finished my last attempt...

Anyhow when I started again I moved him forward and found a Tasoth guy standing right around the corner but one level up. He was armed with a Shok launcher but I ducked back around the corner and waited the turn out anyway.

Next turn I brought the guy on starboard out of his hideaway and discovered a second Tasoth a little way down from the corpse of the first. I shot, hit didn't kill. The two reaction shots missed him tough and he just managed to squeeze out a second hit.The Tasoth went down smooth as anything! He then ran back around the corner towards the stern of the liner and turned to face the bow while admiring the wallpaper.

The two guys to port were currently still checking out the dining area. Well, one of them was, the other (100 morale man) had panicked... One turn late but I felt it coming... The other guy had moved up the steps again to see my second BioDrone. He took a shot and hit it but had nothing else to do but step back down. With the first guy panicked noone had the TUs to finish the Drone off but it must have used all of it's movement as it didn't retaliate that time...

The guy on the observation deck had now rounded the corner and got off his first hit on the Tasoth stunner but he had no time for a second shot so went around the corner once again.

And so another turn ends.

Nothing much happens, except the panicky dude by the stairs panicks again and drops his gun... So again the other guy has to go for the Drone. Luckily he hits again and to my suprise the Drone goes down with only two hits and without firing anything itself. So this other guy now goes up the stairs into Dining area. There was nothing up on this floor but I had my dude poke around a bit anyway. I then sent him to the lift to go up a floor but he didn't manage to get all the way. He just got into the lift and hummed along with the Muzak...

The third guy in the starboard side of the ship began his manouever very spooked out as after he turned around to see an unarmed Tasoth standing in the doorway the firt one had shot out. Strange because he had already checked the rooms back here... I later found out that the Tasoth had been standing behind the single wall panel in the second room. Being unarmed I didn't bother about tactics and just let off two snap shots. The first hit, didn't kill, the second hit the wall to the right. With the few TUs he had left I sent him up closer to the Tasoth.

Up on deck the fourth soldier went back around the corner to deal with the Tasoth guard. One more shot hits and this one goes down too. Now we're making progress... He moves up the steps to where the Tasoth fell and stands at the corner. He doesn't round it just in case...

This turns out to be a good bet as the alien's turn showed the Tasoth at the rear of the ship retreat to where he'd dropped his Sonic Cannon and another one up on deck step out in front of my slayer... With no TUs for a reaction shot the alien turn ended and mine began.

In Starboard I turned the guy there around to check his back before following the Tasoth into his chamber. He made it inside but nowhere significant and didn't shoot.

The panicker by the steps had for some reason panicked again and was now residing in the kitchens with no weapon whatsoever. Needless to say I pretty much ignored him that turn. The other guy went up the central staircase though and checked out the lounge area. He then moved left to see onto the raised deck in the center of the ship. Here he saw a gun. A sonic rifle I believe...

On deck the Tasoth that had just appeared was unarmed so the guy facing him neatly cut him down with just one point blank shot. Then he rounded the corner and walked along the wall. This is when I noticed that the weapon around the next corner must belong to the dead Tasoth.

So anyway another turn done and no alien movement.

Next turn I have the guy to the stern of the ship finish off the Tasoth there at point blank, so not to waste ammunition. Then he came back out to his section of wallpaper and stood there for the turn.

The kitchen staff had also stopped panicking now so I had him check out the pantry. Unarmed though he was I knew he could probably escape any aliens down there if there were any... Anyway, it's all clear so he heads back to the lift while on the deck everything starts to happen at once! First I had the guy by the game room to step out to the railing and check the area where the guns were. He saw another BioDrone but no Tasoth. For some reason there was no reaction shot so I left him and used the other guy before deciding his fate.

This one was still inside the door so I open it and see another unarmed Tasoth. Wrong! He looked it but actually had a Shok Launcher. He didn't fire though and I took him down with two good hits.

Knowing there was nothing I could do with the Portside guy anymore I took him back to where he started and knelt down. Reserved for snap shot...

I may be wrong in my chronology here but I believe this is about the time that my guys stopped panicking and the Tasoths started... If it was then I had the three troopers in the Triton rearm and spread throughout the cabins. They did nothing of significance but in the following turns it was these guys who checked out the few remaining black cabins and the store room in the bow.

End another turn...

The next turn was a fairly interesting one as well. The guy in the stern of the ship who'd just finished dealing with the unarmed Tasoth now moved forward to check the rest of the cabins on this side of the ship. It was not to be though, half way there he stopped when he spotted a Bio Drone. I had him dart back into the cabin he'd already checked and he stayed there for the rest of the turn.

On deck my two guys were now both well aware of the BioDrone waiting there as well so I had the one who was still in the lunge area pop out with a primed grenade and look to where the Drone was. Hmm.... Turned out to be a Tasoth so I guessed the Drone was behind it. It was... I lobbed the grenade as close to the Tasoth as I could and when the guy throwing it turneds he saw the BioDrone in the same spot as last turn. The Tasoth was facing the Drone so he ignored the grenade completely allowing me to slip back inside.

Hoping to take these two aliens out I ended turn as soon as he was inside. Big bang but it was a human grenade and did absolutely nothing. The Tasoth panicked however and the grenadier saw him run into the game room.

So next turn I got the grenadier out again and took a shot at the Drone. I guess the explosion did more damage than I'd thought as it spun around a few times then exploded, taking the game room wall and one of the dropped guns with it. (After the armed Tasoth panicked it had dropped it's own gun next to that of the unarmed Tasoth's)

So now that the two armed ETs were both harmless I sent the other guy into the Game room and took out the Tasoth from point blank range. The grenadier used what was left of his TUs to move into the lift inside the lounge but he didn't make the top floor.

The three guys who were checking the rooms downstairs began checking the dead Tasoth's for any blasta rifle ammo and kept working their way through the cabins, while the guy in the kitchen had by now reached his gun and rearmed. He waited out his turn down by the steps to the dining area again... In the starboard side of the ship I had the dude in the cabin risk a glance into the corridor. It looks clear so I edge him slowly down the corridor. To my suprise I'm now unable to find the other BioDrone. Confused I decide to take a look in the kitchen for it. But half way to the door he spots it upstairs through an opening in the ceiling. I had him back of and hide under the stairs for the rest of the turn!

After sending the dude in the game room back outside I ended the turn.

So the next turn was a bit of a gamble as there were a few aliens who I now knew about but couldn't find... By now I had decided that I'd probably only got a few aliens left so my main priority was to gather ammunition for my rifles... The guy from the game room had now headed back up to the bow of the ship and stopped on the two Tasoth corpses to check for ammo. He ended his turn feeling very stupid after checking a Shok launcher for blaster ammo and standing on a Tasoth... The soldier in the lounge now went up the lift into what seems to be the crew only lounge. By the door there was another unarmed Tasoth. As this guy had only had to go up a lift so far he managed to squeeze off both of the shots it took to kill the alien here. He stepped out of the lift but got no further.

Meanwhile in the lower decks almost all of the rooms had been cleared by my psycho squad and the two guys ready to assault the dining area leapt into action. The panicky one went into the room and over to the only intact door into the room with the dance floor. The soldier in starboard came up the stairs there, hid behind the bar and prayed that the Drone wouldn't move far enough to see through the hole his exploding friend had put in the wall...

End another turn and no enemy movement. Or so I thought until I moved...

It turns out that the Tasoth that went down at the bow of the ship was just sleepy or something... So when the dude who was stealing his Shok bombs turned around he ended up having to kill him again... And now to the control room! He went up the stairs behind him and into the bridge of the ship. Then stopped...

The guy in the Crew lounge had just finished checking out the showers by now and was taking the long way around to rendezvous with the trooper in the bridge.

On the dance floor there was a lot happening and I decided it was time to put a stop to it before even more happened. The soldier who'd been taking care of the starboard aliens now moved into the room through the hole in the dividing wall where the door once was. Well it saves TUs at least! So he steps out a bit and sees the Drone doing, well, nothing really. Just floating there like, a BioDrone... So he was standing 2 meters away from a reactionless saucer which when destroyed would plaster him across the walls... I decided to take the first shot with him as there was no chance that would take it out. I was right and it was a hit. Still no retaliation though. So the guy retreats back to the other side of the wall where there is one section left standing next to the bar! I brought out the other soldier from the dining area who finally seemed to have stopped panicking. He stepped a few feet through the door until he could see the disk and then let off his shot. The disk exploded taking out parts of both lifts, half of the dance floor and the last section of wall protecting my soldier!

Feeling pretty damn pleased with myself I had the three points finish their scouting in the forward part of the ship finding nothing but two abandoned guns in one of the small cabins in the bow of the ship. They continued searching corpses but there was really nothing else for them to do.

Another turn down and we're getting close to where I am now. With the next turn there were no casualties and I had both of my top deck soldiers carry on heading for the bridge. The two guys on what was left of the dance floor joined the scouts in searching for ammo and one headed back to the stairs at the rear of the ship to gain access to the deck.

A great many turns have passed by now which I haven't noted down. These were mainly when I was searching for weapons and clearing through the cabins without searching for the remaining aliens above deck. Now though I had all the ammunition I needed and just wanted to get below deck and finish this thing once and for all. I spent the next turn heading for the only place that hadn't been checked. The bridge. On having my second guy reach there I decided to check it out so I positioned one man to the left of the door and the other opened it for him. They saw nothing so I presumed it was empty and just finished moving everyone else and rechecking below decks, kitchens, dancefloor etc.

The guy who'd gone up onto the port observation deck last turn now moved forward enough to see an unarmed Tasoth at the foot of some stairs. He made his way there in no hurry and kept his eye on the panicking Tasoth for the next turn.

Meanwhile below decks, the only point doing anything of significance had just emerged in the still smoking dancefloor to find yet another unarmed Tasoth standing meters away from the BioDrones scorch marks. Where he came from I don' know but I have a hunch that both he and the other unarmed Tasoth by the steps were the aliens who left their weapons in the bow cabin...

Having no TUs anywhere I ended the turn. The aliens panicked a bit, moved a bit, and then were promptly put out of their hysterics when the two soldiers watching them shot them twice at point blank range...

End turn end game...

Nope... I'm pretty sure there can only be one more so I start looking about for any signs of anything unusual on the map. Dropped weapons etc. This is when I spot what I believe to be the last alien now. In the room in the bridge that I'd thought was clear there were strangely suspicious scorch marks on the floor... Had to be a BioDrone... So swapping one of the guys by the door to the othr side of the doorway I check the room again. Sure enough there it is... And it still is there.

I'm stuck for a plan on this one as I have only one magna blast grenade which I can't throw anyway without being shot... I have no line of fire... And I can't shoot through the walls. This BioDrone hasn't left this room for the whole game! (I can tell because of the scorch marks if you're wondering!) I'll get to it now though and let you know how it goes...

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I had voted like the majority, ship missions s u c k s!

THe good thing is that taking lots of DPL with me, flating the hole ship apart is kinda fun. Seriously.

 

And, well TJ my own proud don't let me just giving up tough missions and asking others to accomplish my missions. It's a question of honor for me.

 

Sorry iggy, all of us was a rookie long ago. And all of us had learned a lot going through assuming great losses sometimes but to win in the future.

Take some experience. Taking losses is very part of our learning process.

None of us became an expert only by winning all missions, and i'm shure that doing that, tftd will be borring soon.

 

think about that.

 

:P

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no offense mate, but unless you use XComutil to load DPL clips into multi-terrain guns, your DPLs aren't going to work on ship missions. :P

 

Though, the idea of blowing a ship to smithereens with DPLs is one I've often contemplated myself. :)

 

Hang one... XComutil does let you select the ship maps for standard missions right? And whether it's above or below water? Think I'll just... I'll just go over here for a while and be ... yes, be quite.

 

*runs away*

 

- NKF

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Firstly Dragonhawk I concur that was a massive piece of text... But I hadn't really noticed as I wrote it over a period of about a day and a half in three semi huge chunks...

And Iggy, although I agree XCom util is most definitely NOT the way to complete the game, he is right in a way. I'm not going to try to convert you because I enjoy the missions you give me but what I would suggest for you is to save every mission that you send me and then play it over and over again from start to finish. Take your time over each move and never take any risks at all. If you do this, then you'll get better and better each time. I trained myself on alien colonies. I started off losing quite a few men, (because I'd already thrashed UFO it was never a particularly large number) but slowly I worked at it and worked at it and my casualties were reduced to none...

Now I'm able to play UFO, TFTD and Apocalypse with no casualties whatsoever unless something goes terribly wrong... And even then I haven't ever lost more than two men in a mission and that was only once...

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Pardon me, I'm temporarily going off on a tangent here with this minor rant, but I have to get this off my chest, which may make me elligible for a bop on the head with the Luser Attitude Readjustment Tool (I'd prefer the humpty dumpty rhyme to the teapot song. I know the words!) :

 

If you're using the features in XComutil that do give you an unfair advantage, then of course it's not how you should play the game. Like adding tech, score or more money. Viewing the entire map for the last hard-to-find alien and the kill-all command are also cheats. I suppose the enhanced ships, tanks and guns are also technically cheats.

 

Some of the other functions, like having xcomutil append stat markers onto the end of your soldiers' names isn't exactly giving you an unfair advantage. It's more of convenience. A tool for lazy people, I admit. :P

 

Nor is map selection. You could choose a map you find easy to play in, or you could choose a map you do horribly in. But that's up to you. In some cases, you're going to lose out a lot. For example, for an ordinary crash site, choosing an underwater shipping lane terror site map will make you lose out on your aqua plastic and other ship components, although whatever zrbite is available will remain, as zrbite is considered as an item. You could even have it randomise the maps so your playing field will be unpredictable.

 

While all these 'enhancements' are nice, the only reason I would recommend the utility would be for the base disjoint bug work around and having it repair the UFO difficulty bug. If anything, these fixes will not detract from the game one bit and you need not use any of its other enhancements.

 

But best of all, you don't have to use any of these functions.

 

Sorry, I'm not making a fuss to convince everyone to use it. Just want to make a point that a tool's a tool. Yes, it is a cheat utility if you choose to use it to cheat. Otherwise, it's just an interesting curiosity.

 

Why do I keep thinking of a Swiss army knife?

 

- NKF

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Nor is map selection. You could choose a map you find easy to play in, or you could choose a map you do horribly in. But that's up to you. In some cases, you're going to lose out a lot. For example, for an ordinary crash site, choosing an underwater shipping lane terror site map will make you lose out on your aqua plastic and other ship components, although whatever zrbite is available will remain, as zrbite is considered as an item. You could even have it randomise the maps so your playing field will be unpredictable.

Well technically map selection is cheating. Especially if as you say you do it to find a map you can do easily... If you do it to find a hard map then it's better but it still is cheating... Playing a downed sub on a liner for example... Where's the sub? Therefore it's cheating as it alters what you should have to take into account while playing...

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