Melee Weapon Stats


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#21 Zombie

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 01:49 AM

Let's compare the SSA to the Combat Dagger for a second. Say your scout has 62 APs and an enemy is right around a corner. You'll only be able to attack 3 times with the SSA while the Combat Dagger gets 4 attacks.

Knife			Min	 Max	 Crit	 AP   Attacks
SSA Dagger		30	  99	  90	  54	  3
Combat Dagger	 80	 140	  76	  56	  4
Because of the SSAs greater damage range and lower min, it actually falls short of the Combat Dagger 41% of the time. In other words, 41% of it's hits do less damage overall. The Combat Dagger will actually overperform the SSA's max 12.5% of the time due to it's smaller range and 2 point higher max. The SSA does 18% more critical damage in this scenario, so is that a deal breaker? Don't know. :)

One thing is for sure though, both knives will "miss" the same number of times. In this case, the nod has to go to the combat dagger because you can usually attack one more time with it. (If you get out to, say, 126 APs, then the difference is 2 attacks).  :)

Of course, this all depends on if you have a choice between the two knives. Most of the time you are going to be stuck with what you've got until enough missions have been run to recover the other knife. In my recent Axis campaign, all I had to pick from initially was the SSA and the Black Jack Club, so it's a no-brainer that the SSA was chosen. On my most recent random encounter I found a Khukuri which is basically equal (or superior) to the SSA in almost every category (except for the Attack bonus). One of my scouts is now training on this weapon so only time will tell if it does the job. :)

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JellyfishGreen said:

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!

#22 Knan

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 04:40 PM

Obviously I don't have a combat dagger yet. :)

And fast melee -25% AP cost equals the field, too. Only thing I really stick to is that less talented meleers get whatever has the biggest attack bonus, so they have a chance of hitting.

(Or, more commonly, a SMG, subtility be damned)

#23 Zombie

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 01:38 AM

View PostKnan, on 5th May 2009, 11:40am, said:

And fast melee -25% AP cost equals the field, too. Only thing I really stick to is that less talented meleers get whatever has the biggest attack bonus, so they have a chance of hitting.

(Or, more commonly, a SMG, subtility be damned)
Hehe, power over finesse is sometimes a better choice. :)

I have been using scouts on and off now for my last 4 campaigns or so and more often than not the scout gets a melee knife of some sort and about 6 throwing knives. Seems to work pretty good overall. Initially they also get a Nagent revolver just in case range is a factor (like getting spotted). Here's hoping that my team runs across a silenced weapon soon, I like the silenced weapons for drawing attention to the general location of my scout, then letting my heavy weapon folk/snipers blast the enemies away. :)

By the way, I added the knife melee stats to a StrategyCore site page here. It's just the knives so far, but hopefully I'll get some time to add the throwing weapons too. Hope you guys find it useful. :)

- Zombie

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JellyfishGreen said:

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!

#24 Zombie

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 02:41 AM

Throwing weapon stats are now up on the same page. Hopefully I didn't make too many mistakes. :)

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JellyfishGreen said:

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!

#25 FullAuto

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 12:44 AM

I've just learned more about melee and throwing weapons in this thread than in years of playing the game.

Thanks chaps.  Time to break out the cutlery.

Erfworld - the finest comic about turn-based gaming ever.


#26 Zombie

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 12:21 AM

Chop, chop. :)

Does anyone use melee weapons/throwing knives exclusively for their scout(s)? I found it is a really good idea to carry along some sort of pistol or sub machine gun as a backup weapon just in case the scout throws all the knives away and the melee weapon takes too long to slice. Of course, this lowers familiarity but you'll get that back if you use the melee weapon type again. :)

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JellyfishGreen said:

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!

#27 FullAuto

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 09:21 AM

Aye, suppressed pistol or SMG for back up if you use throwing weapons.  That way you have some recourse after throwing all your cutlery, or if there's more enemies than expected.

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#28 Knan

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 08:24 PM

A grenade or three is fine for the oh-shit-theres-five-of-them situations, I find. That, and using non-smg-wielding enemies as unwitting meatshields by running up to them.

Plus lots of fervent praying, of course. Can't imagine an atheist scout in this game.

#29 Zombie

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 01:25 AM

View PostKnan, on 11th June 2009, 3:24pm, said:

A grenade or three is fine for the oh-shit-theres-five-of-them situations, I find. That, and using non-smg-wielding enemies as unwitting meatshields by running up to them.
Hehe.  :)

The one thing I haven't done much of is equipping my scout with grenades. I don't know why this is exactly, but it probably has to do with the lack of explosives in game and the general ineffectiveness of only being able to throw the things one or two or three meters. (I understand the need to balance the game, but the inability to throw a grenade even at medium ranges is totally unrealistic). I guess the other reason for not giving my scout a grenade is that I don't want to kill him/her with a inaccurate mis-throw. (Happens more often than you may think). If there was a really big group of enemies, I'd make my scout do a tactical retreat and let the HMG/SMG folks take care of the majority of the baddies via reaction fire (urm, interrupt), then bring the scout in for the cleanup work. :)

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JellyfishGreen said:

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!

#30 FullAuto

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 06:50 AM

Oh, scouts and grenades.

When I first started playing, I caught a group of enemies bunched up, it was on the English manor house map.  Knelt my scout by a tree for cover, whispered "Go on, do it!  Dooo iiit!  Send them right to Broadway!" and threw a grenade.

He blows himself up.

Tried a few more times, same result.  Check his profile.  Nothing there about having the throwing ability of a girl with no hands.

Okay, maybe it's the kneeling down.  No, same result from standing.

Shit.

Took me another half a dozen tries to realise the grenade was hitting the tree branches.   :)

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#31 Knan

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 06:14 PM

View PostFullAuto, on 12th June 2009, 8:50am, said:

Took me another half a dozen tries to realise the grenade was hitting the tree branches.   :)

Hehehe. Even less fun when that spoils your bazooka ambush.

#32 Zombie

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 07:52 PM

Ha! I just started a brand new Allied game of S2 (because my previous campaign is saved on the hard drive of my now-defunct laptop) and barely completed the first mission with my scout (she was teetering on the brink of death, but she had enough health left to drag the body back to the exit point). Then I hired 2 snipers, a scout, a soldier and a HMG guy and sent them on a mission. Completed that by a better margin. Went back to base and then sent the troops out to patrol an area in the lower right/middle right of the map. In a little while a random encounter popped up so the troops were sent in. Darkness, in a map with a semi-circular road going from the middle of one side of the map to the middle of the adjacent side. There is usually a rocky mountain in the larger area, but on my particular map there was no rocks, just trees on the hill. That immediately threw up a red light.

First round I moved my scout a little and she got a bead on an enemy soldier. One of my soldiers killed the guy off and I sent my scout a little closer to see what the guy was carrying. 1 Breda grenade and 6 Shuriken. I wondered to myself: "could this possibly be the coveted map where you can get the Katana"? The resulting battle was very bloody as the enemies were tossing grenades and Shurikens at every opportunity. They were nearly impossible to spot as well - sometimes my scout had to walk right up to an enemy to see him. Slowly worked my way down the road meeting very heavy resistance from more enemy soldiers. There were soldier bodies everywhere, but no officer, hmmm. Just as I thought there wouldn't be an officer, he became visible in an interrupt sequence. Thank god this happened, because now my sniper was able to take 2 shots (both hit). The next turn, the officer was still visible, so I concentrated all the firepower of my team on him. Finally the guy dropped dead after umpteen thousand hits. The leave button turned green, so my scout checked the officer. Bingo! There's the Katana sword! :)

So there were 10 enemy soldiers each carrying 1 Breda grenade and 6 Shurikens for a grand total of 10 Bredas, 60 Shurikens plus the coveted Katana.

This mission was nearly impossible to finish and I don't think it would have been possible without a whole team and the help of a couple scouts and some great shooting by my snipers. If I had to do it all over, I would wait a while until my soldiers were level 15 or so. :) It wasn't really worth all the grenades I used up, or the surgical plasters, though, I can recover more of the plasters. :)

But this was the second random encounter in my campaign, that's what surprised me.

- Zombie

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JellyfishGreen said:

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!

#33 Zombie

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 02:30 AM

View PostZombie, on 3rd June 2009, 8:41pm, said:

Throwing weapon stats are now up on the same page. Hopefully I didn't make too many mistakes. :D

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I just added this info to the current site here. Sorry this took so long. ;)

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JellyfishGreen said:

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!

#34 Zombie

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Posted 31 August 2011 - 12:58 AM

I was going through all the getitem numbers in the game today due to a borked internet connection and ran across the two Panzerklein-only melee weapons (Mechanical Sword and Mechanical Sabre). I'll be adding these to the site table soonish. Now if I only had a saved game with Panzerkleins, because then I could test out the Max APs/breakpoint. :P

Edit: Added. :P

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JellyfishGreen said:

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!

#35 Zombie

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 10:58 PM

Well, the max APs and breakpoint stats for the mechanical sword and mechanical sabre (panzerklein-only weapons) are up on the site! :P

I first looked at which class increases the least from melee at this site page. It's the Sniper which is 75% less than a Scout. Then I looked at which attributes add the most to melee. Str: +1 to melee for each point, Dex: +2 to melee for each point and Int: 0 to melee for each point. So that means for the lowest possible melee stat, create a sniper, take all points out of Dex, Max out Int first, then put the remaining points into Strength. This created a L1 Sniper with only 13 for melee. Nuke the xp level to 0 and the melee drops to 12. Get into a PK suit and melee drops to 2! :P Now that's about as rock bottom as you can get! :)

Now I hired a bunch of soldiers with different melee stats to compare. The Mechanical Sword takes 30 APs to use from 2-13 melee, then drops to 29 at 14 melee, so it's breakpoint is 13/14. For the Mechanical Sabre, it takes 25 APs to use from 2-13 melee, then drops to 24 APs at 14 melee, so it's breakpoint is also 13/14. Cross another project off the list. ;)

- Zombie

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JellyfishGreen said:

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!

#36 Zombie

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 04:38 AM

View PostZombie, on 1st May 2009, 1:20am, said:

Just used the setxplevel cheat to nuke Yves (who normally has a throw of 17 at L1) down to a throw of 14 at L0. ;) When he tried to use the Axis throwing knife, his AP cost was still 8. So that's about as low as I can get for a throwing stat without modding a soldier's skills manually.
Wrong! :) Now that I know a little bit more of attributes, I tried to make a gimped thrower. The Grenadier is 100% (out of the picture) and a Scout is 75% (again, not worth it), so that leaves the other classes (Medic, Engineer, Sniper, Soldier) who are all at 50% at throwing. Not the worst, but it will have to do. :P I picked a medic. For every point in strength it increases throwing by +2, so this is the attribute to set to a min. Intelligence does nothing to throwing, so we can max that. The rest of the points go into Dex (+1 throwing for every point). What I ended up with was a Medic who has a throwing skill of 15 at L1. Nuke xp down to L0 and throwing becomes 12. So that's the absolute min. :)

I tried the Dart Arrow, but it's still 1 AP to throw. My guess is that it remains 1 AP to throw all the way to 0 throwing. The Axis throwing knife also stays at 8 AP at 12 throwing so no change there either. My guess is that it also stays at 8 AP all the way to 0. Well, it was a long shot anyway. :P

Edit: And yes, you really do need to pick a class not proficient in the skill you are trying to min. If you pick a grenadier and try to min him in throwing, he ends up being 4 points more than a class not very proficient. ;)

- Zombie

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JellyfishGreen said:

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!




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