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Two stage missions and alive aliens


Thunder_Gr

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It seems that, although this was suposed to have been fixed in v2.0, it is immpossible to have alive aliens transfered to your base from the first stage of the mission if you abort the second stage.

I have a stunned Tentaculate I have been guarding so that it does not wake up suddenly, when I manage to defeat the last alien and automatically transfered to the second stage.I abort there,(Since I am not yet ready to face the lobsters), but the mission report is witout any alive aliens.

I have verified that the Alien is still alive when I complete first stage.

My difficulty is veteran.

Any ideas?

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Usually when you finish a map, you get the loot and stuff added to your base stocks right away (even before your craft gets home).

 

Obviously this can't be done after the first part of a multi-part mission, because that way you'd get the loot from the first half even if your squad got wiped out in the second. That just doesn't make sense. So originally the TFTD authors dealt with the problem by simply not crediting you for any loot for completing the first half of the mission. The loot wasn't carried across to the second map, it wasn't credited to your stores, it was literally just deleted.

 

Gamers, of course, called this a "bug", because it meant that if you won the mission you were only getting half the swag you were entitled to. They probably didn't realise that it was an intentional design to stop them getting more loot then they were entitled to in a specific situation (and a half-assed one at that).

 

So along comes this patch. When you finish the first half of a mission, all the swag gets stuffed in a special file, and should you clear the second half you get all the items stored in that.

 

But I never looked too hard at the workings of that (still too busy inspecting UFO) so I don't know the full details. If I was to guess I'd say they never got around to creating a similar file to store all the unconscious aliens from the first half of the mission (on the basis that they either got no or very few complaints along the lines of your issue and hence forgot or didn't care about it).

 

After all, the lazy way of looking at it is to say, "you won the first half of the mission, the aliens must all be dead, no point in keeping a record of them".

 

So! How to verify this?

 

Once you've finished the first half of the mission and started the second, tab out (don't close the game) and do a file search for ALL files in your TFTD folder (*.* is what you need to stick in the search box). Sort the results by "date modified". You should now easily be able to pick out all the files that were changed when you won the first half of the mission. Post that list here.

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I experimented with it. I usually play "Ironman" but I thought this would have been "fishy" and saved before it occured to me that I might manage to clear the first level.

 

So, in one of the experiments, I ended up with the alive alien on the hands of my soldier. Guess what?

Starting next level, this alien was dead! Yeap. They kill them as soon as you go downstairs. So, No live aliens from the first level, if you go to the second. I am sure that you get them if you transfer them to the sub and abort.

 

And, all files in the MISDAT folder, except dum.bin, are updated when you finish the first level of the mission.

It is odd, though, they treat the issue that way. It wouldn;t have been a big deal to keep the alive flag, nor would have been a big issue if they denied the loot if the squad was wiped out on the second level, but give it to you if you aborted the second level...

Whatever, what I see simple, for them may had to be a lot of work(I think an hour or two of a single programmer would have done the trick...)

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Oh, sorry, I forgot an important something.

 

By default, Windows counts "looking at a file in Windows Explorer" as "modifying" it. I have no idea why. They probably thought it would be funny.

 

This is aggravating for another reason - If you open a folder, Windows will actually update the time stamps on all the visible contents, even if the folder has a few thousand files in it. In these cases it can potentially take some time to get the job done.

 

(Likewise, opening up a folder with a few thousand ZIP files will cause Windows to read the index in every single one of the things, causing MASSIVE slowdown especially if you're unfortunate enough to have them stored on something slow, like a disc!)

 

I tend to forget about these issues because I've got 'em disabled on my computer.

 

Anyway, to disable the timestamp frustration, you need to open RegEdit (Ctrl + R => "regedit" => Press enter).

 

Browse to "HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\ System\CurrentControlSet\Control\FileSystem" and create a new DWORD there, call it "NtfsDisableLastAccessUpdate". Now double click that and set it to "1". The timestamps should now be handled in a sane manner.

 

Note also that body items point to units in the unit table. If the unit in concern dies, then the body becomes a corpse; it's still the exact same object, it's just no longer got a live unit attached to it.

 

So to transfer an alien into the second half of the mission would involve not only tweaking some flag, but also copying all the unit's data across.

 

My bet is they just alter the corpse object to make it point to no unit (or else it might end up pointing to one of the new aliens in the second half of the mission, and that would be "bad").

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While you can't recover anything that's lying on the ground in the first part of a two-part map, you can carry stuff over to the next by having your troops hold onto it. Assume you are entering an alien colony, if you were to get all your aquanauts to pick up everything that's not bolted down, those that carry across to the next part will still carry the items in their backpack.

 

Live aliens however cannot be carried over to the next part by picking them up this since their unitpos.dat entry is not carried over to the the next part. Just their "body", which is stored in obpos. Without the unitpos.dat entry to get attached to, a body is considered a corpse.

 

I don't know what rules there are to items that are left inside the Triton when you move to the next part of a two-parter mission, since you don't generally lose equipment that you had on it but left behind before moving onto the next part.

 

- NKF

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Oh, sorry, I forgot an important something.

 

By default, Windows counts "looking at a file in Windows Explorer" as "modifying" it. I have no idea why. They probably thought it would be funny.

 

This is aggravating for another reason - If you open a folder, Windows will actually update the time stamps on all the visible contents, even if the folder has a few thousand files in it. In these cases it can potentially take some time to get the job done.

 

(Likewise, opening up a folder with a few thousand ZIP files will cause Windows to read the index in every single one of the things, causing MASSIVE slowdown especially if you're unfortunate enough to have them stored on something slow, like a disc!)

 

I tend to forget about these issues because I've got 'em disabled on my computer.

 

Hmm, it is odd, since the rest of the folders and all files in them have not changed their time stamp. Only these on the MISDATA(Mission Data?) folder. So, it must be accurate that all except DUM.bin is updated when completing the first level of a mission.

 

Note also that body items point to units in the unit table. If the unit in concern dies, then the body becomes a corpse; it's still the exact same object, it's just no longer got a live unit attached to it.

 

So to transfer an alien into the second half of the mission would involve not only tweaking some flag, but also copying all the unit's data across.

 

This makes sense, but the simple solution is to keep the pointer pointing to the table...It isn't so difficult, not even if you have to copy a unit record over for each such unit, unless they have limited entries for units for each mission, which would have been strange, anyway, since they already store them in a file.

 

My bet is they just alter the corpse object to make it point to no unit (or else it might end up pointing to one of the new aliens in the second half of the mission, and that would be "bad").

 

This is propably the case.

 

Live aliens however cannot be carried over to the next part by picking them up this since their unitpos.dat entry is not carried over to the the next part. Just their "body", which is stored in obpos. Without the unitpos.dat entry to get attached to, a body is considered a corpse.

 

Perhaps there is a way to copy over the unitpos.dat entries for aliens carried over, and store the ones still on the ground(alive) so that they can be transfered to the base and count as "live aliens captured)?

 

I don't know what rules there are to items that are left inside the Triton when you move to the next part of a two-parter mission, since you don't generally lose equipment that you had on it but left behind before moving onto the next part.

 

- NKF

 

This is an interesting question, I haven't checked that. However, from the rest the information you and Bomb Bloke have provided, it is more than certain that live aliens inside the XCOM sub would die as well.

 

So, the bottom line is, if you raid a colony for a live Tashoth, you'd better move him in the sub and abort mission on the first level, or else you are out of luck...

 

Another interesting thing I discovered is that:

1)The enemy mind-controls a soldier.

2)It seems they will do so forever, but you don't want to lose him, so you stun him to unconsiousness

3)After a few turns, you use a midikit to revive him

 

It turns out to be still controled by the Aliens!!Ops! What a masacre... :laugh:

...Can this be fixed?

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Hmm, it is odd, since the rest of the folders and all files in them have not changed their time stamp. Only these on the MISDATA(Mission Data?) folder. So, it must be accurate that all except DUM.bin is updated when completing the first level of a mission.

A quick glance at my game suggests the same thing's happening there. What a nuisance.

 

Ok, go take a read through this, I'm sure you'll work something out. Basically any save/misdat files that aren't yet mentioned there are probably relevant.

 

This makes sense, but the simple solution is to keep the pointer pointing to the table...It isn't so difficult, not even if you have to copy a unit record over for each such unit, unless they have limited entries for units for each mission, which would have been strange, anyway, since they already store them in a file.

The limit is something like 80 records. The whole lot is loaded into RAM at run-time, the file is only used between missions or for saving the game.

 

Perhaps there is a way to copy over the unitpos.dat entries for aliens carried over, and store the ones still on the ground(alive) so that they can be transfered to the base and count as "live aliens captured)?

Yeah, but the only way I can do it with the CE game is to use a split executable. Unfortunately doing this with TFTD is aggravating (it always crashes between missions, and can take like a minute each time to do so).

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Ok, go take a read through this, I'm sure you'll work something out. Basically any save/misdat files that aren't yet mentioned there are probably relevant.

 

OMG! You have decoded all this info? It is amazing!

 

The limit is something like 80 records. The whole lot is loaded into RAM at run-time, the file is only used between missions or for saving the game.

 

80 records and large units consume 4 of them? Hmmm...It is a limit. However, since the unconsious from level 1 do not get moved over, there could be a temporary UNITREF, that would hold info about them. Besides, all you need to know at that stage is the type of the alive unit, all other stats are irrelevant.

 

Now, after reading all this on the wiki, and spotting a "bug" report about downing a USO on "land" and generating a mission, there is something that crossed my mind, and I am sure it has crossed other's minds before me...Combining this with your mention of "having recreated the engine..." in one other post...

 

Would it be possible to use maps from both games, using the TFTD version(since they have more things in there that the original doesn't), and create a mix, allowing for both aircrafts and subs, UFOs and USOs, land and underwater missions, Surface and Subwater bases???

 

I think this would have been the epitome of X-COM! Do you think it can be done? Could it be it has already been done?

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OMG! You have decoded all this info? It is amazing!

All of it? No, not single handedly. That wiki gets edits from a lot of people even today and I couldn't hope to outclass some of them, let alone all of 'em together! :laugh:

 

The recent changes list is constantly flooded.

 

80 records and large units consume 4 of them? Hmmm...It is a limit. However, since the unconsious from level 1 do not get moved over, there could be a temporary UNITREF, that would hold info about them. Besides, all you need to know at that stage is the type of the alive unit, all other stats are irrelevant.

Correct. This is sorta what the game does with the stage one items.

 

Now, after reading all this on the wiki, and spotting a "bug" report about downing a USO on "land" and generating a mission, there is something that crossed my mind, and I am sure it has crossed other's minds before me...Combining this with your mention of "having recreated the engine..." in one other post...

 

Would it be possible to use maps from both games, using the TFTD version(since they have more things in there that the original doesn't), and create a mix, allowing for both aircrafts and subs, UFOs and USOs, land and underwater missions, Surface and Subwater bases???

 

I think this would have been the epitome of X-COM! Do you think it can be done? Could it be it has already been done?

I've written most of the code required, but there's a few things left on my "to-do" list before it'd be practical to play with. I was slowly researching battlescape map generation when I last got sidetracked. Need to do some more research on the properties of TFTD maps.

 

While my remake can quite happily load maps for either game it's not actually playable and won't be for some time. So it all needs to be done within the original game engines.

 

So the question is, which to use - UFO's or TFTD's. Now I know what you're thinking, "TFTD is newer and therefore better", but there's a lot more to it then that.

 

TFTD throws in a lot of limitations re what you can do out of the water (in concerns to interceptions (can't have them!) and in concerns to tactical missions (no flying suits, certain guns limited)). UFO doesn't support the same map sizes. TFTD has that b****y annoying wind noise during land missions. UFO doesn't give you any ships that can fly both in and out of water. TFTD has a very bland palette. UFO doesn't have any terror missions off land. TFTD doesn't have any non-terror missions out of water. And so on and so forth.

 

The best solution I can really come up with is to use UFO, but swap in all of TFTD's craft (you can't have both UFO/TFTD's craft, it's one or the other). I think the only real problem would be the shipping missions but those were only fun for me the first few times (the maps aren't random so every battle is the same aggravating "spend an hour looking for the 2x2 alien stuck behind a single tile door somewhere" fest) so I doubt their loss would be mourned.

 

If you've got a geoscape save with an artifact site on your map somewhere, that'd be useful to me.

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I've written most of the code required, but there's a few things left on my "to-do" list before it'd be practical to play with. I was slowly researching battlescape map generation when I last got sidetracked. Need to do some more research on the properties of TFTD maps.

 

While my remake can quite happily load maps for either game it's not actually playable and won't be for some time. So it all needs to be done within the original game engines.

 

If there is anything that can be done to quicken the process that I can help with, I am more than willing to do it. I have enough programming experience. It could be that there is a lot of "grunt work" that needs to be done, so that you can concentrate on more interesting aspects of the development, whatever. If you could use my help, I am here.

 

So the question is, which to use - UFO's or TFTD's. Now I know what you're thinking, "TFTD is newer and therefore better", but there's a lot more to it then that.

 

Well, I was actually thinking, TFTD supports both underwater and land environments, so it should be best fitted...

 

TFTD throws in a lot of limitations re what you can do out of the water (in concerns to interceptions (can't have them!)

 

I think this should be a simple "if" check in the main code that should be easily turned off. Perhaps Seb could help with that...

 

and in concerns to tactical missions (no flying suits, certain guns limited)).

 

Again, it is just a flag in the weapons and suits that could be altered, easier than the interception issue

 

UFO doesn't support the same map sizes. TFTD has that b****y annoying wind noise during land missions. UFO doesn't give you any ships that can fly both in and out of water. TFTD has a very bland palette. UFO doesn't have any terror missions off land. TFTD doesn't have any non-terror missions out of water. And so on and so forth.

 

By changing the wind noise to "blank"(replacing the relevant file), changing the pallette before non-terror land missions and replacing it afterwards would solve these issues IMO. Although I do not remember noticing such a sound.

In addition, any misson on land can be named(or flagged) a "Terror mission" to satisfy mission requirements for the engine. I wander if it is possible to add more mission types without the need to hack the .exe. Basically to allow craft recoveries on land missions...

 

The best solution I can really come up with is to use UFO, but swap in all of TFTD's craft (you can't have both UFO/TFTD's craft, it's one or the other). I think the only real problem would be the shipping missions but those were only fun for me the first few times (the maps aren't random so every battle is the same aggravating "spend an hour looking for the 2x2 alien stuck behind a single tile door somewhere" fest) so I doubt their loss would be mourned.

 

They are very difficult missions, however, since the aliens have many different spots to hide. However, if this is not the only thing to be left out, at least initially-I am sure there is a way that could be kept- surely is a small price to pay for having a full action globe!

 

If you've got a geoscape save with an artifact site on your map somewhere, that'd be useful to me.

 

I have a game in progress, as soon as I encounter the first artifact site I'll save and upload in the modding thread.(I had one yesterday, but forced to withdraw and it vanished...)

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If there is anything that can be done to quicken the process that I can help with, I am more than willing to do it. I have enough programming experience. It could be that there is a lot of "grunt work" that needs to be done, so that you can concentrate on more interesting aspects of the development, whatever. If you could use my help, I am here.

Knowing the map dimensions of all the possible battlescape scenarios would be great. You can see how they're covered for UFO already on the page I linked.

 

Well, I was actually thinking, TFTD supports both underwater and land environments, so it should be best fitted...

Yes, it does have better support for underwater missions, but this can be very easily faked in UFO.

 

I think this should be a simple "if" check in the main code that should be easily turned off. Perhaps Seb could help with that...

He probably could. It's outside my level of programming. Though for all I know, just covering the entire geoscape with valid terrain to create a full world map might solve it (like this). The point is you don't need to do this with UFO, interceptions can be done anywhere.

 

By changing the wind noise to "blank"(replacing the relevant file), changing the pallette before non-terror land missions and replacing it afterwards would solve these issues IMO. Although I do not remember noticing such a sound.

You spend a lot more time underwater in that game.

 

But yes, wiping the sound was my thought. It's just a step that isn't required at all with UFO.

 

Changing the palette is out of the question due to the way the layout of the colours are between games. But don't worry, that's also dealt with.

 

In addition, any misson on land can be named(or flagged) a "Terror mission" to satisfy mission requirements for the engine. I wander if it is possible to add more mission types without the need to hack the .exe. Basically to allow craft recoveries on land missions...

Don't worry, that's taken care of.

 

It's more a problem in where the actual alien ships end up flying and for what purposes. Likewise where bases crop up, and so on and so forth.

 

Really some testing needs to be done with a full world map to find out how the aliens act with such a setup.

 

They are very difficult missions, however, since the aliens have many different spots to hide. However, if this is not the only thing to be left out, at least initially-I am sure there is a way that could be kept- surely is a small price to pay for having a full action globe!

When you've memorised all the hiding places, you'll know how sick of those missions I am.

 

I have a game in progress, as soon as I encounter the first artifact site I'll save and upload in the modding thread.(I had one yesterday, but forced to withdraw and it vanished...)

Thanks.

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Knowing the map dimensions of all the possible battlescape scenarios would be great. You can see how they're covered for UFO already on the page I linked.

 

It seems it is out of order again..I'll check it asap.

 

Yes, it does have better support for underwater missions, but this can be very easily faked in UFO.

 

 

He probably could. It's outside my level of programming. Though for all I know, just covering the entire geoscape with valid terrain to create a full world map might solve it (like this). The point is you don't need to do this with UFO, interceptions can be done anywhere.

 

Unfortunately,I have no permission to view that page you link to...

 

You spend a lot more time underwater in that game.

 

But yes, wiping the sound was my thought. It's just a step that isn't required at all with UFO.

 

Actually, my only missions the 1st 2 months were terror missions...Didn;t notice any wierd sound, but it could be I have gotted used to it...

 

Changing the palette is out of the question due to the way the layout of the colours are between games. But don't worry, that's also dealt with.

------------------------------------------------------------

Don't worry, that's taken care of.

 

So, it is not only doable, but nearly done then? :laugh:

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Unfortunately,I have no permission to view that page you link to...

Really? Oh. Well, I've attached it to this post, then.

 

So, it is not only doable, but nearly done then? :laugh:

I would say most of the coding is done. There's still a lot to do, but I'd consider it all "easy stuff"... Sort of like solving a few hundred single digit arithmetic equations. The actual "working out the method" bits are mostly sorted... in my head. :D

 

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention. I dislike EXE modding. There are a few reasons, but the main one is this: EXEs get changed between game versions. For the mod to be viable it's gotta account for the CE EXE, and at the very least one of the DOS EXEs.

 

Only I don't think Seb has the tools required to debug the DOS ones.

 

I'm off to bed for now. 1:30am. I'm getting into bad habits.

TFTD_Full_World_Map.zip

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I've got the artifact site save game. Now attaching it at the Modding TFTD thread.

 

I will try and help with this. I would love to see that ready soon.

 

It is good to be able to mod without having to rely on an .exe. It is that, sometimes, this is simply not possible..Especially for correcting bugs!

 

If there is already any work done on the maps you said I could look for the info, it would be nice to know about it, so that I do not double doing an already done work.

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I don't know the dimensions of any of TFTD's battle scenarios yet.

 

For example, when you battle a USO, the map will be of a certain size depending on the target craft.

 

Each map is made by sticking 10x10 and 20x20 modules together (the ones Daishiva's MapView lets you look at). Which means that every map will have a factor of 10 in it's x/y dimensions. Likewise, the height of a map varies (it's usually four levels).

 

So whenever you go up against a new USO, if you could note down the size of the resulting map that'd be great.

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I don't know the dimensions of any of TFTD's battle scenarios yet.

 

For example, when you battle a USO, the map will be of a certain size depending on the target craft.

 

Each map is made by sticking 10x10 and 20x20 modules together (the ones Daishiva's MapView lets you look at). Which means that every map will have a factor of 10 in it's x/y dimensions. Likewise, the height of a map varies (it's usually four levels).

 

So whenever you go up against a new USO, if you could note down the size of the resulting map that'd be great.

 

OK! I will start a testing game and I will use your battlescape editor to remove the fog and count the dimensions. I will start today. I believe until tommorow I should have covered plenty of maps and will be ready to post a great deal of info.

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From recollection, every map is 4 elevations high, except the final tri-parter mission, which only got 2 elevations per map. That's partly why it was left feeling so underwhelming compared to a regular colony!

 

The maps can go up to 6 x 6 modules in area. At least the X-Com bases are those dimensions, and 4 elevations high to boot. UFO generally only had 6x6 module maps set to 2 elevations, though regular 5x5 blocks could go up to 4.

 

Ship maps break the square mould, though do stick to 4 elevations per map.

 

- NKF

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0: USO Site: Depends on alien craft, Cruiser (the large scout thing) is 6x6x4 so likely anything bigger is the same.

01: Port/Island Attack: 5x5x4

2: Base Defense (X-Com Base): 6x6x4

3: Colony Stage 1: 6x6x4

4: T'leth Stage 1: 6x6x2

5: T'leth Stage 2: 6x6x2

6: T'leth Stage 3: n/a (not generated so I don't care)

7: Artefact Site Stage 1: 5x5x4

8: Artefact Site Stage 2: 4x4x4

9: Passenger/Cargo Ship Stage 1: n/a (not generated so I don't care)

10: Passenger/Cargo Ship Stage 2: n/a (not generated so I don't care)

11: Colony Stage 2: ???

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Colony Stage 1 and T'Leth Stage 2 are fixed maps.

 

Definitely Colony 1, but T'Leth 2 may need more looking into. From recollection of the many times I've attacked it, I recall the layout to be the same and often met the Deep-Ones in the same spot. Usually that dark hall that winds towards the small number of exit pads.

 

- NKF

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0: USO Site: Depends on alien craft, Cruiser (the large scout thing) is 6x6x4 so likely anything bigger is the same.

01: Port/Island Attack: 5x5x4

2: Base Defense (X-Com Base): 6x6x4

3: Colony Stage 1: 6x6x4

4: T'leth Stage 1: 6x6x2

5: T'leth Stage 2: 6x6x2

6: T'leth Stage 3: n/a (not generated so I don't care)

7: Artefact Site Stage 1: 5x5x4

8: Artefact Site Stage 2: 4x4x4

9: Passenger/Cargo Ship Stage 1: n/a (not generated so I don't care)

10: Passenger/Cargo Ship Stage 2: n/a (not generated so I don't care)

11: Colony Stage 2: ???

 

It appears you got the info by yourself...

 

I can confirm

00: Escort + Survey: 50x50x4

00: Cruiser: 60x60x4. Since there is no map more than 60x60x4 it is safe to assume all other subs to be also 60x60x4, but I'll check it at first opportunity.

2,3: 60x60x4

9: Passenger/Cargo Ship Stage 1: 30x70x4

 

This means that, although the combined size will not be more than 60x60x4, the maps can also be rectangular with one side more than 60 tiles.

 

I have also some remarks for the batlescape editor.

1)When it starts, it displays a small window at the top-left corner of my screen, instead of full screen, making it very difficult for me to work with. I do have the latest version of java. Took a look at the script, and it appears to instruct a resolution change, but it is, obviously, ignored, and instead it creates a small window at the top-left.

 

2)It appears that, one of its features is that it counts the size of the map(among other things) and displays it on the window, and also reports it at the Dos box, after exiting the editor, making this work really easy :laugh:

 

Verified 00:Hunter sub, also 60x60x4.

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Er, well, turns out I had all these log files sitting around which just so happened to keep track of map sizes... (amongst other things).

 

It is indeed supposed to go fullscreen. What operating system/version are you using?

 

Try pressing the S button a few times, might fix it.

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If you haven't, you might want to check the map dimensions for the USOs over several different maps/sea bed tile sets. It's possible the dimensions may vary sometimes. At least I think that was how it worked in UFO - I seem to recall that some of the smaller ships ended up in 4x4 while other times 5x5.

 

- NKF

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Map sizes for the different UFOs in EU are hard-coded to a constant size in the executable. (I found them a while back while browsing the exe for unknowns). I haven't checked the numbers for TFTD but assume they follow the same format. Of course, I may be confusing map size with module size. It's been so long since I looked... :D

 

Edit: it was module size, sorry for the interruption. Carry on then. :laugh:

 

- Zombie

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I have winXP professional English /w SP2(maybe also 3, not sure if I installed it, its been a long time since I installed the OP). I'll try pressing S to see what happens...

 

And Survey/Escort always 50x50x4. HUnter/Supply ships always 60x60x4, Base Defence always 60x60, Ship missions are not generated, so, again, always 30x70x4...

 

Great! Now that this work is done, what is next?

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