79 replies to this topic

[Zombie]

Uh, I don't think that's what Stewart was getting at. He meant to try and shoot down those Terror Ships with 2 Interceptors loaded with dual Avalanche Launchers. If they were unable to do so, then let the aliens form a Terror Site and go after them there.

[Stewart]

Nope I said let 'em go and chew up people (if they get past your interceptors).  There's only one attack a month.  If you keep your scores high you can eat it.  Remember most months your planes will get them.

[Bomb Bloke]

It is actually more score effective to send troops to terror sites, even if you don't bother to do anything there, and simply take off straight away. You'll lose half as many points (or even less) if you do it that way.

[Stewart]

I had always wondered about that but never checked.

[Bomb Bloke]

Zombie did some trails. I believe the maximum amount of civilians that can appear on a map is 14, the minimum, 0. The score for losing a civilian is 20, so the maximum score you would lose for visiting a terror site and exiting immediatly is 480 - whereas you lose 1000 points for not turning up at all. You might even get lucky and lose 0 points, if there were no civilians on the map at all...

[Zombie]

"Some" trials? Try 2000 reloads. That's a pretty good sampling. Gee, my hand still hurts from that one!

Those civilian numbers aren't quite right though. I'll just retype 'em here:
Minimum: 0
Maximum: 16
Mode: 12
Median: 11.5
Anticipated Ave: 8
Actual Ave: 11.45
Range: 17

The number of points lost for each civilian is -30 points. Hence, the maximum number of points you could lose by dusting off from a Terror Site is 16 * -30 = -480. If you never visited the site and just neglected it, you lose -1000 points, or more than double if you just showed up and aborted.

Because the distribution is skewed, you will almost always see between 8 and 16 civilians at a Terror Site. Percentage-wise, it's a little over 96%. Those lower numbers are pretty rare events. You only have a 3.95% chance of seeing between 0 and 7 civilians. And in the best case of 0 civilians, it happens 0.3%. Always assume you will see the average of 12. It's a safe assumption because it has a 13% chance of happening (the most out of any number).

So I agree with Bomb Bloke that visiting every Terror Site that forms is to your advantage. You simply cannot ignore one when the points always favor you for showing up. If you don't like what you see (like Ethereals and Sectopods), fire off a few Blaster Bombs, then leave!

[Stewart]

Did you get at least one of each sample between 0 and 16 (ie every number in between)?  Judging by your data the anticipated average should be twelve.  Rather than an even distribution it is squewed higher.

[Rzhanov]

Was wondering if somebody can explain me the idea of usage of non-energy weapons? I mean that for my UFO practice i never had used anything exept laser rifles, plasmas and blaster bombs.

[NKF]

So, you wish to use standard armour piercing weapons, high explosives and incendiary weapons, eh?

Hmm, let's see...

For Armour piercing weapons, being one of the weaker weapons in this game (I say weaker because the damage levels are really low for almost all the weapons), the one thing you really must familiarise yourself with is your enemy's armour levels. Okay, so you needn't memorise it, but you should have a general idea of what you're up against.

Basically, sectoids, floaters and snakemen all fall into the category of having very light armour. Practically all terrorists, mutons and ethereals have relatively medium to very heavy armour. For all the aliens, the front armour is the hardest, followed by the sides, the rear and finally the under-armour. Only explosives affect under-armour. So for the best effects, try to shoot them from the side or in the back if you're having trouble.

Your two basic armour piercing weapons are the standard pistol and the standard rifle. The standard pistol is just as accurate as the rifle for snapshots, but it is very fast firing. You make up for its lack strength and lack of aimed accuracy and autofire by its sheer speed and cheapness (sure, it's just 1 extra snapshot over the rifle, but better an extra shot at the higher snap-shot accuracy, right?). The rifle has an autofire option, which makes it decent for short range combat, and a slow but accurate aimed shot, making it a slow but fair sniping weapon. The difference between their damage levels is only 4 points, so they're technically interchangeable. Note however, that of all the aliens, the only real aliens they'll be able to deal with are the sectoids, snakemen and floaters (at least on superhuman - on easier levels, you can take out cyberdiscs and reapers too).

Your next set of armour piercing weapons are the heavy cannon, auto-cannon and tank cannon. The heavy cannon features strength and accuracy, while the auto-cannon features an auto-fire mode albeit it is not as strong as your heavy cannon.  While you'll normally want to use these with HE shells, the AP shells are useful for taking out certain enemies in the early game who are resistant to HE. Such as chryssalids (who take less damage from explosives but take normal damage from AP shells). The tank cannon is the strongest AP weapon in the game, sadly, it's stuck on a tank with its poor accuracy and bulk. However, it is still powerful, and can take out cyberdiscs a lot easier than the rocket tank.

Apart from knowing who to use the AP shells against, you'd mostly use them in the same manner as you would your energy weapons.

Note: For pistols and rifles, as mentioned before, they are best used for attacking sectoids, snakemen and floaters. You don't want to end up facing a bunch of enemies that you cannot defeat. They are best used in combination with explosive weapons - namely grenades. Cannons with HE shells work okay, but they lack strength for taking out some of the stronger terrorists. For these, you'd need large rockets and high explosives. For most other enemies, alien grenades and proximity mines work wonders.

Also note that the pistols, next to the laser pistols, are the best weapons in the game to use as reaction-fire weapons. Or, if you prefer, reaction fire 'training' weapons.

---

HE weapons

Grenades.

Well, there are plenty of strategies you can use with grenades. Like pre-arming the grenades and storing them in your shoulder slots or belt for quick retrieval. The grenade relay chain, where someone at the back arms a grenade and tosses it forward to where it's needed so that the scout can toss it and also run away or fire off shots.

You must throw the grenade in order to earn any experience from it. Dropping it, while effective, will not net you any experience.  

Strength is the major influencing stat used by grenades, as it affects the distance of the throw. Throwing skill just controls where it lands. High explosives are literally twice as heavy as any other grenade, so the throwing distance is halved. Hence why you need plenty of strength to make use of them effectively. But they pack a punch!

If you're standing under a ceiling of some sort (well, the Skyranger's wings are technically a ceiling), your throwing distance can be drastically altered. Walk away so that you're no longer under the ceiling before attempting your throw. Otherwise you'll only be able to throw short distances. This is why it's so difficult for strong soldiers to throw grenades in cramped spaces, like the bases.

And just so you know, hitting enemies with grenades exercises the firing accuracy stat. So soldier that cannot shoot well but have overall good stats might want to be kept around as grenadiers for a while.


Ranged HE weapons

Well, there's the autocannon and heavy cannon. One with speed and the other with power and slightly more accuracy. As a lot of enemies have light under-armour, HE shells are the natural choice for these weapons. Note that if you're wearing power armour, these weapons become even more lethal because you can now use them as short range combat weapons. You'll only receive damage from direct hits, not the splash damage. Or little to no damage in the case of heavy cannons, being slightly stronger.

The rocket launcher is your second most powerful handheld ranged HE weapon (the Blaster launcher's the first). It's the most accurate aimed shot weapon in the game as well, so always try to use these with aimed shots and with kneeling and very accurate soldiers. Snap shots should be used when you're sure of a hit. Like firing from a high elevation right into the ground near a group of enemy, or firing it right into a wall.

Small rockets are not that powerful, but they are much more portable than the other rockets. They're about as powerful as a standard grenade. Still good for training. Also, in power armour, you can almost use these as close combat weapons. Not as effective as an autocannon though.

Large rockets are the rockets to use. You'll need some way of distributing the weight if you find them too heavy. Save these for clusters of enemies, or for tough enemies. Great against Mutons and Ethereals and practically everything else. Sectopods may need multiple hits, but will go down to large rocket eventually.

Incendiary weapons:

In general, lots of people use incendiary weapons as a very temporary but portable (and expensive) light source. Fire can be used to indirectly kill enemies over several turns(as long as the fire keeps burning and there's fuel to burn).

Incendiary weapons also have one very unusual effect. Any unit that is standing in a patch of fire will receive impact damage for every incendiary shell/rocket that detonates during that turn. Amazing, but true. Note, this may only be true for fire created in the current game. Not too sure about what happens if you save then reload. This is technically a cheat.

Unusually enough, you can even kill superhuman sectopods with autocannon incendiary rounds this way.

The incendiary rocket is the heaviest of the rockets. It also has the highest impact damage and blast/burn radius of any incendiary weapon in the game. I'd recommend using it as an opening move or if you want to deal tons of damage to units who are standing on fire. Note that there's a limit to how many fires that can be created at any given time, so using a lot of these is not recommended unless it's for the impact damage.

---

Overall, any of these weapons can last all the way through the game. Even pistols. You just need to know how to get the most out of your chosen weapon and when not to use them. Anyone can use a laser rifle or a heavy plasma, but with the other weapons, you need to use combinations to make up for their weaknesses.

But look, don't force yourself to use these weapons if they don't seem to be working for you.

Curses, I timed out while typing all this ... And somehow I get the feeling I'm not answering the question. oh well .

- NKF

[Stewart]

Quick rule-of-thumb, fight 'em with HE but when you get close use AP.  This is a generalization of course.

[Zombie]

Stewart, on Dec 3 2004, 05:49 AM, said:

Did you get at least one of each sample between 0 and 16 (ie every number in between)?  Judging by your data the anticipated average should be twelve.  Rather than an even distribution it is squewed higher.

One of the reasons I did 2000 reloads instead of my "normal" 1000 was because some of the lower numbers were not represented, even up to the 1500 mark. However, that all changed within the last 500 values. Here is the distribution count, if you're interested:

# of Civies    Count     Smoothed     % of Total
     0            6           6           0.30%	
     1            3           4           0.15%	
     2            4           4           0.20%	
     3            4           6           0.20%	
     4            11          8           0.55%	
     5            10          12          0.50%	
     6            15          17          0.75%	2.65%
     7            26          85          1.30%	3.95%
     8            215         155        10.75%	
     9            224         225        11.20%	
    10            236         235        11.80%	
    11            246         247        12.30%	
    12            259         246        12.95%	
    13            232         228        11.60%	
    14            194         197         9.70%	
    15            165         170         8.25%	
    16            150         150         7.50%

So every number was represented at least 3 times.

The anticipated average was 8 - [0+16]/2. The actual average was 12. To get a better idea of how the data is skewed, plot the # of Civies vs. the Smoothed column as a line graph. That pretty much tells the whole story!

----------

"Non-Energy" weapons . I suppose that most players try to opt-out of these asap in favor of the Laser and Plasma weapons. This probably answers why people ask what the purpose of them are when you have a Heavy Plasma and a Blaster Launcher.

My response is: you have to start out somewhere, and the earth-based, non-energy weapons are all you've got at the beginning of a campaign. However, they still have certain advantages over the more advanced weapons as NKF so kindly pointed out. Granted, those starting weapons have rather low damage potentials, but each of them is unique in some respect.

For instance, I'd much rather use a High Explosive than an Alien Grenade. Even though it's tough to throw, it sure packs a wollop when compared to the alien grenade. For reaction training, nothing beats the low TU cost of the normal pistol. What alien weapon has the capability to shoot 3 different types of ammo? Nothing! That's why the Auto Cannon, Heavy Cannon and Rocket Launcher still are useful later on. See, you can't just overlook the earth-based weapons, simply because they cause less damage than the researchable weapons do. Everything has a purpose, but in the end, it's up to the player to decide if those weapons are worthwhile to use!  

[Stewart]

Statistics was . . . god . . . 16 years ago.   But my age degraded brain seems to recall something called a Chi Square Distribution or something like that; have a look.

[Zombie]

Zombie, on 07 December 2004 - 06:49 AM, said:

One of the reasons I did 2000 reloads instead of my "normal" 1000 was because some of the lower numbers were not represented, even up to the 1500 mark. However, that all changed within the last 500 values. Here is the distribution count, if you're interested:

# of Civies	Count	 Smoothed	 % of Total
	0			6		   6		   0.30%	
	1			3		   4		   0.15%	
	2			4		   4		   0.20%	
	3			4		   6		   0.20%	
	4			11		  8		   0.55%	
	5			10		  12		  0.50%	
	6			15		  17		  0.75%	2.65%
	7			26		  85		  1.30%	3.95%
	8			215		 155		10.75%	
	9			224		 225		11.20%	
   10			236		 235		11.80%	
   11			246		 247		12.30%	
   12			259		 246		12.95%	
   13			232		 228		11.60%	
   14			194		 197		 9.70%	
   15			165		 170		 8.25%	
   16			150		 150		 7.50%

So every number was represented at least 3 times.

The anticipated average was 8 - [0+16]/2. The actual average was 12. To get a better idea of how the data is skewed, plot the # of Civies vs. the Smoothed column as a line graph. That pretty much tells the whole story!

Necro, I know, but I have some new information!

I think the reason why the number of civilians vary and there isn't a normal bell shaped distribution is possibly because of three factors:

• The map blocks which make up a city
  
• The number of spawn points within the map blocks
  
• Difficulty level

Map Generation

My theory is that the low civilian counts (0-7) primarily happen when there is one road (as there aren't any spawn points for civilians to go in those blocks) and more so when there are two roads that cross each other. Basically, the roads are empty space which ultimately limits the number of map blocks with civilian spawn points. Depending where the roads are situated, it may prevent the larger 20x20 blocks (like warehouses) from being placed and this is where the most civilians start out.

Spawn Points

This ties into the above, but if there are only smaller 10x10 map blocks being placed on the map because of the roads, there aren't going to be a lot of civilian nodes available. Also, certain blocks (such as the apartment building and large park - both 20x20) have surprisingly few (or no) civilian spawn points. If one of these bigger blocks are placed, it'll chew up a lot of area where there is a light civilian population. There are also other 10x10 blocks like small parks with no civilians spawn points.

Difficulty Level

This probably plays a pretty big role, but not in the way you might imagine. The game may or may not predetermine the number of potential civilians to place before the map is generated - even if the map is already generated however, the number of civilians isn't based on the composition of the map, it's a random number roll and I suspect the roll is the same across all difficulty levels. Additionally, I surmise the game only has one roll (between 8-16 civilians) it uses for all difficulty levels (the numbers 0-7 aren't in the roll).

The reason why the civilians are sometimes limited (or not even present) is the spawn order and quantity of units. Remember that X-COM tanks spawn first, then X-COM soldiers, then aliens and finally civilians. Also remember that "Civ-Scout" spawn points are not reserved for only civilians, if a lot of X-COM or alien units need to be placed, they will occupy those nodes instead. Since X-COM units are placed in their ship, this doesn't factor into terror sites. Aliens however, still need to get placed somewhere on the map and as difficulty level increases, so do the number of aliens. If enough aliens are slated to be placed, they will consume all the civilian spawn points and prevent them from showing up. I suspect that as difficulty level increases, the probability of those 0-7 civilian terror sites will increase also. (Needs testing).

So obviously I did my 2000 trials all on beginner difficulty level. Why is the distribution of 8-16 civilians not flat line, but instead sorta bell shaped? If different quantities of civilians were placed on the same terror site map, then yes, it would be a flatline distribution. Trouble is, the map generated isn't the same each time. And why are 8-11 civilians more probable than 13-16? I think this is because there are normally enough aliens (even on beginner) to almost always cut into civilian populations.

So I think that kinda covers it, until we find out where the civilian roll is located in the executable.

- Zombie

[magic9mushroom]

Zombie, on 05 June 2016 - 07:38 PM, said:

So obviously I did my 2000 trials all on beginner difficulty level. Why is the distribution of 8-16 civilians not flat line, but instead sorta bell shaped? If different quantities of civilians were placed on the same terror site map, then yes, it would be a flatline distribution. Trouble is, the map generated isn't the same each time. And why are 8-11 civilians more probable than 13-16? I think this is because there are normally enough aliens (even on beginner) to almost always cut into civilian populations.

So I think that kinda covers it, until we find out where the civilian roll is located in the executable.

- Zombie

That doesn't look like a flatline with corrections to me, it looks like a pyramid with corrections (i.e. 8 + [0-4] + [0-4]). Otherwise the mode wouldn't be 12.

Though of course this is armchair statistics

[Zombie]

Can't really be sure what type of distribution it is, but assuming that there is more than one way to construct a map with the requisite civilians then my guess is still bell shaped. With only 9 data points you can't really see it though.

And I'm beginning to think that I need more trials (above and beyond the 2000 on beginner) to see if that sheds some more light on the subject. What would be really nice is to log the map blocks for each terror site, but I don't think BB's logger is capable of that (might be able to sweet talk him into it though).

- Zombie

[Tsathoggua]

I must confess, I am an absolutely insatiable, pyromaniac and compulsive  son of a feminine canine of an arsonist, when it comes to dealing with the bug threat.
What I like most about willy pete rounds, is the effect not mentioned, and this is that an alien will do a runner (or whatever the equivalent is for things that possess no legs might be, according to species of course;)) if set on fire, or the area its in is burning. They will go elsewhere, frantically seeking a way out of the flames, or around them, although this is more useful in creating barriers.

E.g if you have a chryssalid howling and shrieking, charging towards some poor hapless civilian (IMO it would have been good if they had been given some defense on occasion, like your occasional weapons enthusiast, hunters with anything from crossbows to shotguns and rifles, and the odd mental case that has a thing for things that go 'boomfff!!!', molotov cocktails, maybe the odd hand grenade just occasionally. Kitchen knives, getting to watch them trying to mob a cyberdisk with axes, bats, maybe teaming up and very rarely even taking one down for the count, only to find themselves all suddenly blasted into smithereens when/if its power source goes off. The odd terror site with one or two cyberpunk types with DIYed low-med level lasers, EMPs,  etc. would make for a hell of a neat mod, IMHO.

What I REALLY wish I could have, are shotguns and grenades. Former for close-in only breaching of doors, and dealing high damage to lesser armored aliens that happen to cop a burst from a combat shotgun, or both barrels of a 12ga unloading a facefull of buck'n'ball into a sectoid or two, turning their faces into a shredded pulpy ruin hanging halfway down the back of the big-eyed buggers, or maybe even something like civilians blasting a chryssalid repeatedly at close range if by sheer chance it hasn't enough TU to go and zombify away as a chryssalid is wont to do, tag-teamed by a bunch of pissed off civvies with break action double barreled shotties, sawnoffs and the like, packing slugs. Maybe just enough to wear the stronger aliens down coming from civilians, maybe they get lucky for the time being, and stay alive a bit longer.

And even more....incendiary grenades. UNBEFUCKINGLIEVABLE that the dev team didn't think of it.

But for the IC rounds one does have, something like the weaker (round civilians, preferable to avoid killing them unless you want them dead) autocannon IC rounds, fired on a snap and aimed shot basis,to create a flaming wall between the oncoming 'lid and the otherwise imminent addition to the brain-drooler ranks, forcing, if one is careful not to set the chryssalid on fire itself, the damn thing to charge your men instead, and meet a massed wall of rifle, laser, rocket launcher, whatever you have to hand, and get splattered into crunchy meat flakes and shell fragments.

Can be used to corral the enemy, forcing them into kill zones, firing from cover, into the likes of prox mines, timed HE charges, timed alien grenades or even human hand grenades.  Have them running from the encroaching firestorms. Autocannon are great for this, heavy, but can fire burst shots, and gradually force the enemy into the bunch of heavily armed soldiers, ducked in cover, smoke bombs down on the ground, until they round the corner, and meet an autocannon/AP burst fire or two right in the face from a few steps off. Or into shock prod capture teams waiting down the road behind cover etc to get the alien into position right up close to your men as they end the alien turn, giving the men, even relatively inexperienced ones, almost all  their TU, to jump out of cover, still swathed in smoke from the smoke grenades, and zzzzappp zap zappp bbbzztcccrack! away to their hearts content. When they may otherwise, if they had to be forced to make the approach, have just been mowed down like the bastards were playing a game of skull-cracking, face-melting, zombie-spawning whackamole, especially good for getting rookies good experience, forcing the enemy to run into a well-prepared trap and kill zone where they are just guaranteed to get shredded?

And WHAT I wouldn't give for a flamethrower.  Could be fun especially for etherials, torch those robes off and leave them too busy knowing how big a dick they look, starkers naked.

Hell, maybe a variant of the stunner with a short range, localized torch, like a big blowtorch on a stick. Just for prodding aliens to where the rookies are camping out with their weapons. Or simply taking it out on an alien thats been disarmed, after REALLY earning  some abuse.



Anyone got tips for prox mines? I rarely use them, except either to boobytrap a corridor in for example, a base, to stop something coming up for a back-stab. Or a whole minefield and flush a few enemies, if possible, but any will do, into the rookies throw-laid minefield (so as to get experience rather than dropping them, probably not a great idea with a proximity mine though anyway.

Do they go off if the OWNER that set them drops or throws them at feet or nearb+

[Zombie]

Tsathoggua, on 27 June 2016 - 06:13 AM, said:

Anyone got tips for prox mines? I rarely use them, except either to boobytrap a corridor in for example, a base, to stop something coming up for a back-stab.

A lot of people seem to have no use for Proxy Grenades, but I use them all the time. The thing I use them for is basically "area denial". If I clear a portion of a map and don't want aliens wandering back in there, I'll plop a proxy at a natural chokepoint (base of two hills, between trees, between buildings etc). I sometimes mine the perimeter of the Skyranger if my men are bogged down and it's nighttime. Just in case you need to dust off in a hurry, those Proxies can cover your retreat.

I also use them in alien bases (obviously) to boobytrap doors to upper rooms if I have a feeling an alien is up there. Oh, and X-COM bases as well. If you build your base with a natural chokepoint, you can mine the corridor from the Access Lift to the rest of the base. UFO's are prime locations too. Chuck a proxy at one of the inner doors of the Large Scout while your men concentrate on the other. Or dump them at the base of lifts.

Proximity Grenades probably will not kill any alien outright except for maybe Sectoids, but even for tougher aliens it'll serve as a warning device if they wander into an area you don't want them to. It might even interrupt the aliens AI pathing routine during their turn. I've seen Chryssalids set them off and then high-tail it out of the area.

Tsathoggua, on 27 June 2016 - 06:13 AM, said:

Do they go off if the OWNER that set them drops or throws them at feet or nearb+

Not sure what your question is as it was cut off, but in general, any movement into a proximity grenades detection radius will cause it to go off no matter who threw it.

- Zombie

[magic9mushroom]

Tsathoggua, on 27 June 2016 - 06:13 AM, said:

Do they go off if the OWNER that set them drops or throws them at feet or nearb+

If you drop an armed proximity grenade at your feet, it will not explode - but it will explode the moment you take a step in any direction. They trigger on movement, not proximity. However, vertical movement is safe - so if you want to remove a proximity grenade, the proper procedure is to have a soldier in a Flying Suit move directly above the mine and then drop directly down onto it (like normal grenades, they don't explode when in inventory, so picking it up will effectively disarm it).

Tip: Throw them 1 tile away from UFO doors, not directly in front of them. If the mine is placed right in front of the door, it will explode when an alien steps up to the door from the inside - and do no damage, because the blast can't penetrate a UFO hull. You want an alien stepping out the door to trigger the mine, so leave one tile empty between the door and the mine.

[Tsathoggua]

Of note-proximity mines will go off if descending onto them from above if playing openXcom.

[magic9mushroom]

Tsathoggua, on 31 July 2016 - 11:42 PM, said:

Of note-proximity mines will go off if descending onto them from above if playing openXcom.

I see. Well, I'm sorry about that, but I didn't know.

(I play an absolutely vanilla DOS version of UFO: Enemy Unknown 1.4. Only change is that I hacked out the difficulty bug. Myself, with a hex editor, not with a utility like UFO Extender or XcomUtil, because most of the utilities "fix" stuff I don't want "fixed" with no way to opt out.)