Pumpkinhead Posted June 29, 2004 Report Share Posted June 29, 2004 Do you think it was a conscious decision of the developers to have MC'd or stunned civvies become "aliens"? Chryssalids would become less of a problem if you could stun wandering civvies, that's for sure. Also, you could reduce your civilian losses to aliens. When you think about it though, if you were walking down the footpath and shot unconscious by some soldier in strange armour, I'm sure you'd become "hostile" upon waking too. You wouldn't realise that it was for your own good. The same would go for MC I'd imagine. On a side-note, does anyone ever use MC'd civvies as human-shields? Or use them as extra soldiers by making them pick up weapons? I think it's funny to see an armed civvie shoot, because the gun sprite is not drawn and the shot looks like it comes from their chest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman4117 Posted June 29, 2004 Report Share Posted June 29, 2004 I think mind control bit was a bug. They just programmed the flag to swap between X-com and Alien when mind control is used. As for the stunning, I am not so sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkinhead Posted June 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 One other thing about civilians that has always amazed me, is the fact that they seem undaunted by the presence of the aliens. They just wander around, often stopping, right in front of some nasty-lookin' beast. How can the governments expect you to save their people from this terror if their people are so stupid that they walk right up to the enemy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman4117 Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Aliens fried their brains at the start of the terror mission to confuse them. Makes them headless chickens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombie Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Pumpkinhead Posted on Jun 29 2004, 09:55 AM When you think about it though, if you were walking down the footpath and shot unconscious by some soldier in strange armour, I'm sure you'd become "hostile" upon waking too. You wouldn't realise that it was for your own good. The same would go for MC I'd imagine. That's a good point! I would be a little ornery too if I were suddenly stunned or some psi-freak took over my mind! Although, I am not as stupid as those civilians, so maybe I would forgive and forget! Using MC'd civies as human shields? I've done it, but it does not help too much. Aliens can shoot from anywhere, so a shot can come from a direction you did not anticipate. Alien#1 spots your soldier with a MC'd civie standing in front of it. Alien#1 relays your position to Alien#2. Alien#2 is standing to your side and fires. Soldier dead, civie still standing there! Using civilians as extra soldiers? I have done this also. One time, I was having a hard time Mind Controlling aliens on a Snakeman Terror Mission. I did not have trouble MC civilians though. I gave one civie a heavy plasma, and the next round I was unable to regain control of his mind. Oops! BIG mistake! That civie got PO'd and killed 3 of my squad, including my commander! Next round I nuked him with a Blaster Bomb (killing a couple of Chryssalids in the process). Revenge is a dish best served piping hot after a friendly game of "Catch The Silver Football"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NKF Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 There is on advantage to having a 'rogue' civilian. They are no longer worth any points. The problem is that the game has no allegience memory to tell a unit who it originally belongs to. The way the game implements mind control is like this. You have two flags. An allegience flag, and a 'is unit under mind control?' flag. When you mind control a target, the game automatically switches allegience = X-Com and is unit under mind control = yes. When the turn ends, if the unit is under mind control is checked, the game resets it and then flips the allegience to the opposite team (i.e. the aliens, or if it was the aliens to X-Com (see also X-Com chryssalids)). It's a simple solution (and there's plenty of space in the data files what with all the unused fields), but it's a pity we cannot mess around in the source code to fix this. - NKF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombie Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 NKF - So civilians start out with their allegiance to X-COM. If you mind control a civilian, his allegiance flag gets switched to alien. Ok, I get this. But how can the game allow you to MC a civilian for the first time if his original allegiance is to X-COM? If civilian flags are originally set to nothing (null), or both (alien and X-COM), then I could understand this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkinhead Posted June 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 As I said above though, if you think of the allegiances as "hostile" and "friendly", then of course a stunned or MC's civvie is going to become hostile. I'd be majorly pissed if some soldier smacked me in the back with a stun-rod! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkinhead Posted June 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 There is one advantage to having a 'rogue' civilian. They are no longer worth any points.You normally get 30pts for saving each civilian. So if they're considered alien after stunning/MC, do you not get any points at all? Q: Does anyone know the "deployment" number of civilians for Terror Sites? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NKF Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 Zombie: No, civilians are an independant group. There are three groups in the game. 0, 1 and 2. X-Com and aliens get 0 and 1, or perhaps the reverse. 2 is for units that are controlled by civilian AI. When a group mind controls any other unit, the target unit's allegience is set to the mind controller's allegience. So if an X-Com unit mind controls a civilian or an alien, the target's allegience gets sets to X-Com. But this is only temporary as the flag that tells the game that the unit is temporarily under mind control will swap the allegience to the opposing party and clear itself at the end of the turn. X-com's opposite are the aliens. The aliens' opposites are X-Com. The game just doesnt' remember who the unit belongs to. Look at the X-Com Chryssalid. A mind controlled Zombie will have its allegience set to X-com and the flag that tells the game that the unit is under mind control will be set. If this zombie is killed, its allegience will default to alien after the chryssalid hatches. But the flag that tells the game that the unit is under mind control will still be set. So, at the end of the turn, well, you get the idea. Pumpkinhead: I mind controlled almost every civilian unit in the field and let them go rogue. Didn't lose any points for the ones that were killed, nor did I get any points for the stunned civilians, but I did get points from civilians that were still under civilian AI control. If I went back to the start of the terror mission and let all the civilians expire in the normal manner, my score was pushed well into the negatives. This, of course, assumes that the end-of-mission tally is accurate. I feel it isn't. - NKF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombie Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 That is what I was trying to get at. 3 independant groups and hence 3 different flag types. Makes sense! So after the civies flag is turned to X-COM, it does not revert back to civilian, right. If I understand you correctly: right after the turn where you MC the civilian, his flag gets erased and then set to alien? Or is the flag field still empty? I will confirm that stunned civilians do not show up under "saved" or "lost". Civilians that are saved at the end of a mission net you + points - this is basic info. Now, if I remember my tests correctly, I think that civies that died under X-COMs control gave negative points. Though I may be wrong here. As far as I can tell, the end of mission report is pretty accurate. (At least for the computer version). I tested to see whether a stunned alien is really worth twice the points of the same alien dead. Results: for the PSX you get the SAME points, alive or dead. Who knows, where there is one problem, another probably exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mouse Nightshirt Posted June 30, 2004 Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 The game probably doesn't anticipate you mind controlling civies. If the flag is set to "X-Com" and "Mind-controlled", when the MC tag drops, the game does not revert it to its original flag, as it kept no record of it, it just sticks it back to "Alien". There will be a bit of code somewhere that says "When mind-control goes from 1 -> 0, revert to opposite of (side)". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkinhead Posted June 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2004 This, of course, assumes that the end-of-mission tally is accurate. I feel it isn't.I've tallied up my mission results manually several times and have always gotten matching scores to the game, so I think it's safe to say that the end of mission tally is accurate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumpkinhead Posted July 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2004 I did another tally last night when I finally got the chance, and it did indeed match up. One thing I've always found interesting, is that you not only get points for killing the alien (Victory Points) but you also get points for their corpse. Bonus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blehm 98 Posted July 2, 2004 Report Share Posted July 2, 2004 i find civilians are highly usefull for getting in the way of both your shots and alien shots, so its a double edged sword Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puasonen Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 So if you mc a civilian and give him a gun, he will shoot you when the mind control is finished? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman4117 Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombie Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 Puasonen: well, yes and no. It depends on the civilian. They consider X-COM agents "alien" so they will shoot a soldier if they see one. Then again, they might opt to walk around. After all, this seems to be a civilians favorite pasttime! ---------- Pumpkinhead Posted on Jun 30 2004, 12:31 AM Q: Does anyone know the "deployment" number of civilians for Terror Sites? Your wish is my command! I just spent several days collecting a sampling of what you could expect. Now, just remember: this is only a sample of 350 Terror Sites. But rest assured, a 1000 reload list will be on its way as soon as I get it done! First, the statistical data:MINIMUM: 0 MAXIMUM: 16 MODE: 12 MEDIAN: 12 AVERAGE: 11.41 RANGE: 17 STD DEV: 2.68 And next, the tallies:# Of Civies Count 0 1 1 1 2 1 3 0 4 1 5 3 6 2 7 5 8 30 9 45 10 41 11 44 12 53 13 41 14 33 15 29 16 20Interesting facts: after dusting off from one of the Terror Sites, I thought the screen said 1 civilian killed by the aliens. Now, I was confused since the lowest I had up to that point was 6! Anyhow, I put this number aside and continued on. A little while later, I really got a shock. All the screen said was: Terror Continues, Score: 0, Rating: POOR. That's it, no mention of civilians killed. There were NO civilians at this terror site! Ok, this was too much excitement for me to handle in one day, so I stopped before I became delusional. The next day I had 2 civies at a terror site so I knew that I was not hallucinating and the data was sound. Normally, with a range of 0 to 17, you would expect the average to be around 8, right? Well, not according to my data! It says 11.41, or rounded: 12. If you plot the data points in the tally table, you will see a skewed Gaussian distribution: the lower numbers have less of a chance of appearing than the higher ones. WOW! To make it clearer: you have a 2.57% chance of seeing 0-6 civilians at a terror site and a 4.00% chance of seeing 0-7 civies. Meanwhile, the average (12) has a 15.14% chance of showing up, and the maximum (16) has a 5.71% chance! This data was taken on the Beginner level, and having assault squads of anywhere from 1 to 14 soldiers. Now, from what I know about the game there is a cap on the number of units at a terror site (X-COM soldiers + Aliens + Civilians). HWP's, Reapers, Cyberdiscs and Sectopods are counted as 4 units and everything else at 1 unit. Does anyone know what the maximum cap is? Since higher difficulty = greater chance of having more aliens, and if you bring an entire regiment in an Avenger, I would guess that you would see less civilians on the higher levels. Don't worry, I will check this out when I finish the beginner table! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman4117 Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 0 civies......freaky O.o Even more so than the "all aliens died in crash" thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbes Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 The game limit is 80 units but most of the times it can't be reached because of the 170 object limit. Each unit counts as an object (its dead body), large units count as 4 objects.Two remarks concerning your data: one thing that affects the number of Civilians is the number of spawning nodes in the maps. Since the Terror Site terrain is randomly composed of several different maps, the overall disposition can affect your data. The other thing is that the 0 value seen when you hit dust off doesn't mean that there isn't civilians on the site. I've watched a number of times the game engine miscalculating the score for the mission, including the lack of any mention to lost Skyrangers and the 0 civilians killed. This usually happens when I reload several times the same game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psy Guy Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 Ive seen terror sites where it was on a road and a bunch of empty grass squares. No buildings, no civilians, and about 6 aliens (non where terrorist class aliens). I think this happens when large scouts start terror missions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbes Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 It all has to do with the specific maps (the individual squares you mention). Each map has a number of nodes which are used by the aliens to patrol and look for humans. Usually there's some designated as spawning nodes and they're the initial positions for the aliens/civilians/soldiers (although not all are used).In terror sites most of the spawning nodes are in maps that contain buildings. Roads usually don't have any spawn nodes and on clear areas there's usually only one spawn node at its center. The fact that you only got 6 aliens has to do with that peculiar map disposition, without any buildings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombie Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Hobbes Posted on Jul 8 2004, 08:33 AM Two remarks concerning your data: one thing that affects the number of Civilians is the number of spawning nodes in the maps. Since the Terror Site terrain is randomly composed of several different maps, the overall disposition can affect your data. During my trials, I inadvertently stumbled upon the spawning node idea. I could correctly identify where aliens were initially stationed and act swiftly to neutralize them. A very common node is smack-dab in the middle of orchards and fields. Another common point is to the left of the Skyranger and about equal to the landing ramp next to a building. I realize that Terror Sites are randomally put together. The reason that I am realoading so many times is to "average out" any discrepancies that may occurr. This spawning can't affect every reload, can it? In any case, my data will at least give everyone an idea of what to expect! Hobbes Posted on Jul 8 2004, 08:33 AM The other thing is that the 0 value seen when you hit dust off doesn't mean that there isn't civilians on the site. I've watched a number of times the game engine miscalculating the score for the mission, including the lack of any mention to lost Skyrangers and the 0 civilians killed. This usually happens when I reload several times the same game. So the 0 civilian Terror Site is a corrupted file, or maybe a miscalculation error? Then how do you explain the 1 civilian Terror Site, and the 2 civilian Terror Site, and the 4 civilian Terror Site. Are these also corrupted files, even though the score was calculated correctly? I highly doubt this. I'll admit that some of the realods were from different saves. If one save is bad, it does not explain why the other saves were giving the same data though! What hard evidence is there that a 0 Civilian Terror Site is not plausible? I'll wager to bet none. What prevents the game from not spawning any civilians? I'll wager to bet nothing. If you concur that a 1 civilian Terror Site is possible, then what makes a 0 civilian Terror Site so far-fetched? Stranger things have happened in this game! I actually played quite a few Terror Sites, because I think missions are fun. I played through the 1 civilian Terror Site, and there really was only one civilian. I saw it get killed right before my eyes! Granted, I did not play through the "supposed" 0 civilian mission, I just dusted off. So it is possible that I am wrong, but whats not to say that I am right? I'll stick by my data until I see obvious statictical inconsistencies within it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbes Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 I concur that a 0 civilian Terror Site is possible, like the situation Psy Guy has described. However, the score screen is not the best way to determine the number of civilians/aliens. I don't think also the errors have nothing to do with save games but they're a miscalculation made by the game. Still, they happen and they lead to flawed data. If you want to prevent this, an accurate way to determine the number of aliens/civilians on a terror site is to use XComUtil. It saves the details of all missions, including the number and type of units, on the xcomutil.log file. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombie Posted July 29, 2004 Report Share Posted July 29, 2004 Allright. It took some time, but I finally was able to visit and play through a "supposed" 0 civilian Terror mission. How did I do this? Load up a game where a Terror mission is active and send a landing craft to intercept it. After arming your soldiers, I saved the mission in another slot. I then hit the dust-off button and reviewed the result screen. If it said a score of 0, I reloaded the mission and started to play. What did I find out? There were no civilians at terror sites where the score screen said 0! And yes, I played through more than one mission with a score of 0 to be sure. In every case, I could use explosives unrestricted, because no civilians could be harmed. No death screams from civilians were heard, and no civilian bodies could be found after an extensive search of the battlefield. It was pretty funny walking around a "supposed" terror mission firing off explosive rounds here and there, without a second thought of saving a civilian! It was like an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie: I see an alien to the left, and blast away at it until it was dead. I see an alien to the right, and I blast some more. One guy with a Heavy Cannon and 4 clips of high explosive rounds mopped up the entire site in 10 rounds! Talk about a one man army! I could hear the rest of the troops saying: "Heah, when is it our turn to shoot?" How is my progress on the 1000 reload list? Well, I have my 1000 Terror Sites and how many civilians were at each one. The only problem was that the statistical data was "dirty". The gaussian curve was getting messed up by "spikes" here and there. Not too much of a spike, but enough to make me want to add more values to "iron" out these imperfections. Right now, I have 1500 reloads and the data is looking better. I am shooting for 2000 reloads, and this should not take too long if I get a little free time soon... I'll give my results shortly, so in the mean time, heres for hoping that everyone gets a 0 civilian Terror Mission!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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