Piracy.


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#21 Hankosha

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 01:00 PM

But you have to also look at what's been happening. Canada has a supreme court ruling overthrowing an attempt to stop music piracy?

Is that to say that piracy is allowed in Canada?
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#22 Kernel

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 03:07 PM

BB and Matri, I think your posts explained my point about "out-dated business model" in my earler posts.

In the modern "Internet" age there's no real reason for the middle-man any more. You can see this everyware from holidays (buying stright from the tour operators rather than through a travel agents) to buying cars (buying from the manufacturer rather than a car dealer).  ublishers (in their present form) are becoming obsolete and they know it.

I did some google searching the other day and I found a webpage that explained details about music artists legal rights, etc. On the page it gave an example of a contract between the record lable and the artist. I don't have the URL at the moment but here are some points I picked out.
On average, the artist only gets 20% of the income from album sales, the rest went to the record label.  That 20% must cover recording costs, living expences, manegment fees, etc.
It went on to say that many artists don't make any money from that 20% at all and have to make extra money from tours, merchandice, etc. to actualy make money.
The website also showed that the record label holds all IP rights to the songs on that album, the artist can't do anything with the music unless they have permision from the record label.

Now we are slowly beginning to see music artists and software developers bypass the publishers as seen by Valve (with steam... when it works  :) ) and Stardock (They've got a great web distribution system). I hope more developers and music artist decide to get rid of their publishers and sell direct to the public over the internet. It'll be better for them and better for us.
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#23 Ivory

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 05:14 PM

fro a consumer poin tof view thats fab!! but what about from an econemy and work point of view....if we get rid of all the worker jobs we are left with a high rate of unemployed.

people do not like loosing there jobs! (understandably)

here we start to approach the elitism aspect of capatalism....but i wont go there ill stick to the point! (well kinda)

if they cut out the middle man do you really thin prices wil drop??? im not entierly sure about that...if people are gree (as has been said before) then they will just see a bigger profit margin for themsleves as artist wont they??
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#24 Matri

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 10:06 PM

I think it is highly like that they won't cut out the middleman quite so soon if they didn't take a huge share of the cut. Capitalism at its worst, somehow these people don't understand that they can increase their customer base by taking less profit, instead they choose to shrink their customer base by taking more profit.

Guess it really is greed after all.
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#25 Zombie

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Posted 02 February 2005 - 05:32 AM

Anyone ever hear of an artist called Aimee Mann? She used to be the lead singer for Till Tuesday. After that group disbanded, she started her own band. Initially, she was under the Geffin Label (David Geffin Company or DGC). Obviously, there were quarrels between the artist and the label over rights and ownership, as well as the overall sound and composition of an album. After going back and forth for years, she dropped the Geffin Label altogether.

What she did next was nothing short of extrodinary: she formed a coalition of like-minded artists under the name United Musicians, and started her own label: SuperEgo Records. Now she has complete control over every aspect of creating an album. Not only that, but she also sells her CD's and merchandise directly to consumers through her website. Need I say you can pick up her albums for about $10 USD? That's damn reasonable in my book.

Now, only if other musicians would follow suit and not sign with a record label. That would really shake up the industry. However, I cannot foresee this happening anytime soon since those compaines are so well ingrained into the industry.

One advantage with a record label is that they push the album to consumers via radio or advertising. (Even if that requires payoffs to DJ's to get the music on the air). An artist on his/her own probably will not have the necessary clout (or funds) to make their albums get into the charts - unless they are a superstar already. That could explain Aimee's lackluster album sales.  :)

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#26 Matri

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Posted 02 February 2005 - 12:34 PM

I recall a newspaper article I read on the RIAA's sue-ing spree. They took an elderly couple to court because they found a PC-only P2P program... on their iMac.

I'll bet if we had sent them to Iraq instead of Star they would have found WMDs, bio-labs, an illegal MP3 factory, a panda suicide bomber cloning-and-training facility, and griffins. :)
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#27 Bomb Bloke

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Posted 04 February 2005 - 10:55 AM

I saw one news clipping saying that the RIAA had won a certain case and been given permission to storm a Kazaa office, and take whatever machines they wanted to search them for pirated media. I never heard anything more of it - let's face it, why would there be any dodgy material on the kazaa boxes? That's not how P2P works.
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#28 FullAuto

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Posted 04 February 2005 - 03:04 PM

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Then you are not entitled to own a copy of the contents of that CD or DVD. It's that simple.

Well, yes, I am, because I'll go to ebay or any other shop or site that sells it cheaper than that.

Quote

BUT if it was easy and legal for everyone to download from the internet would sales drop then???

It's pretty easy to download songs, and as for legal, there are plenty of sites where you can get the music legally and pay very little, and besides, prosecution isn't exactly a likely prospect, is it?  Downloading couldn't be much easier, but album sales have still increased.  This kind of shows people up when they say downloading is killing the games/music/film industry.

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#29 Strong Bob

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Posted 06 February 2005 - 04:19 PM

FullAuto, on Feb 4 2005, 11:04 AM, said:

Well, yes, I am, because I'll go to ebay or any other shop or site that sells it cheaper than that.

Er... But if you don't buy it, how are you entitled to the CD/DVD? Buying off of E-Bay is not piracy. :)
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#30 Bomb Bloke

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Posted 09 February 2005 - 02:34 AM

He didn't say he'd resort to piracy. His point was he won't pay the original asking price.
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#31 FullAuto

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Posted 11 February 2005 - 02:45 PM

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if they cut out the middle man do you really thin prices wil drop??? im not entierly sure about that...if people are gree (as has been said before) then they will just see a bigger profit margin for themsleves as artist wont they??

Yes, prices will drop, because the artists can charge less and still make more.  As a SIMPLIFIED example, Artist A releases an album while under contract with a record company and it is sold for £15 a throw.  From every sale, the company gets £10, the artist gets £5.  Sell a thousand copies, that's five grand to the artist and ten grand to the company.  Ok?
Artist A leaves the company due to financial and moral outrage, and releases a second album off their own bat, priced at £10.  Say £2 an album to cover costs, the artist makes £8 per album sold.  Sell a thousand copies, thats eight grand.
The result?  Cheaper music, an untainted creative process and a happy artist.  Companies not only recoup costs (which is fair enough) they also like to hog the profits.  Some bands have bypassed releasing CDs, and have offered their music on their website to download at low low prices.

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#32 Ivory

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Posted 11 February 2005 - 03:14 PM

mmmmmmmmmm i can do the math...i just dont see it working out that way, maybe thats just my sinical mind.
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#33 Strong Bob

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Posted 11 February 2005 - 10:44 PM

Why do you not see that working that way? It's the way it has worked in the past. What could sway your mind from that?
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#34 Ivory

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Posted 12 February 2005 - 07:08 PM

in the past people left their doors unlocked cos people were honest.
in the past many things have happened, but they soon stop happening when people reaslise they can take advantage.

I just dont think in the long run its gonna happen. its a feeling, its not a rational explanation and i cant make it one. as i said maybe i just doubt the power of human nature to conquer over greed.

everyone is entitled to an oppinon, and I hope to be proved wrong in mine. but only time, and lots of it can do that for sure.
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#35 Accounting Troll

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 06:46 PM

The internet is rendering traditional music publishers obselete in the same way that railroads made the canals obselete.  Paradoxically their strong arm tactics are acellerating this process by alienating their customers.

The smarter music publishers are the ones trying to adapt to the internet by offering large numbers of relatively inexpensive downloads avaiable from one place.  The profit for each song may be less, but people will simply use the money they save to buy more songs.  The publisher is also released from the risk of losing money if it distributes a song that ends up doing badly in the record shops.  CDs will continue but only as a fringe market (not everybody is up to date with modern technology), but the company will have the advantage of knowing what songs are popular with what type of people before the CDs are released.

I am sure that if people save money by legally downloading songs instead of buying CDs, they will almost always use the money they have saved on more consumer goods, including songs.  This is because these days hardly anyone seems to beleive in saving for a rainy day.

The companies who refuse to adapt will go the same way as the companies that owned the canals, which is the way capitalism has always worked and always will.

#36 Ivory

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 08:06 PM

i beliveve in rainy days  :huh:
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#37 Zager

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 09:40 PM

Quote

The smarter music publishers are the ones trying to adapt to the internet by offering large numbers of relatively inexpensive downloads avaiable from one place. The profit for each song may be less, but people will simply use the money they save to buy more songs.

How is charging people to download songs going to lure them away from their ability to download them for free?

#38 FullAuto

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Posted 14 February 2005 - 02:13 PM

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I just dont think in the long run its gonna happen.

Neither do I, but it does work out cheaper and more to the point, it does work.  A single human being can be greedy, yes, and if artists did publish their own stuff they could still be greedy while selling their art at a lower price.  If they wanted to.  A lot of artists merely want to make a good living from their work, and why not?  Being paid to do what you love?  It's a license to steal, practically!

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#39 Ivory

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Posted 17 February 2005 - 11:12 AM

i will ignor that partiulary 'james bond' delivery there and just smile    :huh:
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#40 FullAuto

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Posted 17 February 2005 - 02:57 PM

Ok....

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