Winter War


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#21 LoTekK

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Posted 19 November 2003 - 04:58 PM

I decided to do some reading on this Simo Hayha, as my interest had been picqued. He actually used an iron-sighted Mosin-Nagant Model 28, and was credited with over 500 kills with it over a 9-month period (apparently this is still an unmatched record).

And here's some info on another Finnish sniper during the same conflict:

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Suko Kolkka. Finland, 1939 - 1940.
During 105 days of combat Suko was credited with 400+ enemy kills as a sniper in the Winter War (30 November 1939 14 March 1940). He used an iron sighted Mosin-Nagant rifle. He often took the war to the rear of the Soviet lines, causing much fear and frustration as this area was supposedly safe. In addition to the kills he made as a sniper, Kolkka also was apparently quite fond of the submachine gun as he made an additional 200 kills with it during this same time frame. Hunted often by the Soviets, he outlasted them all, killing the sniper sent to hunt him at 600 yards with a single shot after a running duel of several days. Like Simo Häyhä, Suko Kolkka exhibited the hard determination and skill that kept Finland a sovereign nation even after its inevitable defeat. At the end of the Winter War a Soviet General is said to have quipped, "We gained 22,000 square miles of territory. Just enough to bury our dead".
Wow. (The Russians apparently lost 1 million men out of the 1.5 million-strong invading force. :shock: The Finns, on the other hand, lost only 25,000 men).

#22 Schatten

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Posted 19 November 2003 - 11:03 PM

Russians seemed to love sending soldiers to their death without much strategy planning. (Points, Stalingrad)

#23 RooK

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Posted 19 November 2003 - 11:33 PM

I think there is no reason to put raatteentie in any way in mod. It was huge fight and there is no way to do it with S^2. I think the story should be telling about "kaukopartiot" (longrange patrol) cause the worked behind enemylines and made many different jobs: sabotage missions, recon missions etc etc. I think those guys can be qualify as special forces.

#24 RooK

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Posted 19 November 2003 - 11:34 PM

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Russians seemed to love sending soldiers to their death without much strategy planning. (Points, Stalingrad)

They atleast got what to send  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

#25 Schatten

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 01:07 AM

Come to think of it... constantly sending soldiers *is* their strategy!

#26 Lukree

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 09:30 AM

My Enemy-Territory kills are lacking behind of Suko's kills... Sounds like his overall points were quite extraordinary!

I have also been told that one of the reasons why Russian were so "unlucky" with Winter War was the fact that a great amount of their soldiers were from southern Russia. Therefore it isn't a surprise that "freezing hell" isn't very comfortable environment to fight...

But, to the point - about the mod:
I haven't even tried the editor yet, but in game campaign there is quite much those snowy missions in ural. So, in theory there wouldn't be huge amount of work to do for the mod when most of the textures and prefabs (if there is any?) are already done?

Maybe bigger part of the job would be exellent and believable storyline, real locations, map layout and design and all those minor tweaks to make thing "feel like Winter War". (Actually I haven't fought in Winter War, but my grandpa has)

I also agree with Rook that maybe it would be best to concentrate into those longrange patrol type of missions. (Raiding Karelian Russian occupied villages, churches, etc) Of course there could be also some scenes with more massive fights (trenches, dugouts, korsus, poteros..) to add diversity.

I think that the main thing is to make the whole mod to feel like one, well written campaign and not just single missions separated totally from each other.

Has anyone seen water in SS? I haven't played the campaign more than some ten missions, but at least I haven't seen any. How to make Winter War mod without water? Of course lakes are frozen, but sinking a patrol of russian troops into lake with a single grenade would be perfect!

#27 TOPO

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 09:53 AM

Quote

Has anyone seen water in SS? I haven't played the campaign more than some ten missions, but at least I haven't seen any. How to make Winter War mod without water? Of course lakes are frozen, but sinking a patrol of russian troops into lake with a single grenade would be perfect!

I think (tomorrow the game will be released in Spain so I only played demo and readed a lot about the game) there isn't water but for your purpose you can create a frozen lake this way, make a Map Hole (with no ground on it) where you want the lake and cover it with breakable flat object with ice-like texture... now if it blews up the soldiers over it will fall to a NeverEndingStory-like "Nothing" wich will kill them (or am I wrong?)
You will not see blue surface below but the effect will be the same. :(

#28 GutRot

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 01:41 PM

I've too been toying aroung with the idea of winter war mod.
So far I have only been trying to learn the editor and constructed a korsu (kind of a wooden bunker?), ditches and a wooden maxim hmg station (using the allied hmg and logs).
It seems that as russian troops are well covered in the game already, and finnish troops had pretty much similar clothing to that of german soldiers (maybe a change of textures + color) so the mod/campaign could actually be made with some effort and perfected over time if there are still intrested ppl.
I'd like the mod to focus also on the storyline so it is not just a random bunch of missions. The plot could actually be more straightforward than in the original game so it could captivate more easily.

ps. If we are talking about possible characters, one should definately be Viljo Rättö as a grenadier (first ordinary soldier to recieve Mannerheim cross).

#29 Oboli

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 02:09 PM

I've been watching this conversation about Winter War and it sounds very interesting.
It's hard to say before we get that editormanual, but I would like to be in that project in some way or another, if needed.

Let's make kick-ass campaign!   :(
" Latua perkele! "

#30 Lukree

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 02:57 PM

This page summarizes the war shortly in finnish:
http://www.koulukana...a/ww2/talvisot/

Quick translation about troops:

FINLAND
295 000 men (rifles only for 250 000 men)
13 (!) tanks, 114 planes (!!)
ammo for artillery only 270 000 (Soviet forces shoot almost the same amount in one day when trying breakthrouh in february)
tactics:
Small teams moving fast with skies. "motti" tactics: stop enemy forces, cut the communication and destroy smaller groups. Destroy first and last tank to the road and destroy everything between.
lacking equipment:
rifles 15% of men, pistols 75%, light-machine guns 10%, machine guns 40%, sub-machine guns 70% and anti-tank equipment 90% (this lead to "improvised weaponry" for example Molotov Cocktails, sugar and pipe bombs)
Losses:
22 800 dead
43 600 casualties
total: 66 400

USSR
450 000 - 500 000 men
for example 2000 tanks, 1000 planes
tactics:
mass attack and motorized army. Single attack at all fronts towards the west. Goal was to occupy Finland in three weeks.
Losses:
at least 90 000 dead (estimates varies greatly)
200 000 casualties
total: 290 000

#31 Lukree

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 03:03 PM

Please ignore me, a bit more finnish glorification...

Quote from IMDB about Talvisota movie
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0098437/

Quote

TALVISOTA (Winter War) deals with the 1939-40 Russo-Finnish War, a largely forgotten conflict that was one of the most savage wars of the 20th century. The Soviet Union invaded Finland in November of 1939 when the Finns refused Stalin's demands to relinquish some of their territory in Karelia. The Finns were outnumbered 50-1 but fought with incredible courage and tenacity and inflicted a half million casualties on the Soviets before they were forced to capitulate in March of 1940. The Russians were equally brave but not as smart; they stormed well defended positions en mass and were mowed down by the hundreds. TALVISOTA brilliantly captures the horror and carnage of that war and all wars. Disturbing and depressing but also a gripping and deeply moving experience. Makes SAVING PRIVATE RYAN look like a walk in the park.

You can also order that movie from amazon:
http://www.amazon.co...190231?v=glance

Although I prefer the older b&w movie from year x. Anyway those movies are exellent background information about the war.

#32 Agrotis

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 08:14 PM

I'd like to make one little correction about "motti" tactic... :( The Finnish destroyed the 1st and the last vehicle of the line alright, but they didin't destroy everything between the 1st and the last vehicle... They usualy stole the equipment from the Russians as an good example at "Raatteen tie" the Finnish troops captured a lot of equipment from the USSR, over 100 cannons, 43 tanks, 10 armoured cars, 278 cars, 20 caterpillar tractors, 1170 horses and a lot of ammunition.

This wasn't a very big mistake but I just noticed it when reading the post  :cry:

#33 RooK

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Posted 21 November 2003 - 10:04 AM

Glad to see people know so mutch about winter war.. next question:

What you guys actually know about S^2 editor or shall we make that "mod" with notepad  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

#34 Viceman

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Posted 21 November 2003 - 01:00 PM

Quote

Glad to see people know so mutch about winter war.. next question:

What you guys actually know about S^2 editor or shall we make that "mod" with notepad  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Well i started mapping yesterday, nothing special learned yet. But maybe i post some screenies after weekend (if im not drunk all the time :? ) beer is so good... :lol:  

Friday 1600   :(
Friday 2100   :badgrin:
Saturday 0200   =;
Saturday 0500    :?
Saturday 1000  Posted Image

#35 Agrotis

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Posted 22 November 2003 - 12:20 AM

Kinda same thing with me... Nothing special yet, just playing around with the editor and trying out some ideas. I'm not so good with mapping(yet) been trying Half-Life and Max Payne too... with poor results. But this S2 editor is a lot clearer I think  :(  . So let's just wait and see...

#36 RooK

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Posted 25 November 2003 - 11:58 PM

Darn editor is totaly f*cked up  :(  :(  it just keeps crashing the whole computer after 2minutes use.. :-x  :x  :evil:  :?  :shock:  :(  :cry:  :roll:

#37 HornyRabbit

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Posted 26 November 2003 - 03:36 PM

I've tried to learn some basic mapping and seem to be getting the hang of it.

i'm pretty busy with school and work so i wont be getting much done and my web page is not up yet so no screenies yet... :/




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