Two troop transport landings at exactly the same time..consequences?


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#1 Tsathoggua

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Posted 01 July 2017 - 10:43 AM

Haven't had this happen before. But, just managed to take down a pair of USOs, one small, a scout of some sort and one large one on an infiltration mission. Wouldn't have gotten the last one, but the latest craft, a manta just transferred to another base, armed with a sonic oscillator and PWT cannon. Launched a flight and ran out of fuel, but craft stayed in the air (this has happened before, and now I can return the other flight back to base to rearm since all it had were a pair of PWT launchers, meaning two shots (albeit two devastating ones) and then patrol duty unarmed. That one can now go get some R&R for the pilot who is no doubt by now, after months in the air, REALLY desparate for a meal a shower and a shit :P

But the new interceptor, fast as it is, caught up with the larger craft in moments, engaged and brought it down without it ever getting a shot off. Sent two troop transports in to put boots on the ground and bodies on the floor. But here's where it got odd. Saved just before, (luckily?) and the first transport bearing the primary  assault team, the survivors who have been fighting near enough right from the start, and as a result by now, have become more or less unstoppable, backed up by heavy artillery and a sonic tank, the other, backup squad just needs to transfer to another base briefly, stop off and pick up a more up to date tank than the coelacanth/gas cannon on board, from any of the bases where the garrisons have spare sonic tanks and somewhere to land. A little less experienced and bar the commander of that base are, for the most part, either psyker types of modest capability, and a couple, two or three really outstanding ones, in terms of potential, strength in the 90s and high at that. Still, they are unskilled and in training both on-base and on the battlefield, letting rip as much as possible with the MC attacks to train up as rapidly as possible.

But anyway, the weird bit. Transport 1 landed, got the mission start clearance screen y/n begin mission. And at the interphase point between mission arming and geoscape, the second craft landed. Smaller one landed first. Am I still going to get both the missions, is this likely to crash the system or what? never had anything like this happen before. And of course, a large infiltrator craft, is not something I want to leave hanging around, un-looted.

#2 NKF

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 02:00 AM

You'll probably see how to plays out for yourself before you see any of the replies here, but theoretically no time should pass when switching between the Geoscape to the tactical engine.

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#3 magic9mushroom

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 07:08 AM

Okay, let me see if I've got this right.

2 alien subs on map. You sent a Triton after each. They both reached their respective sub nearly-simultaneously; after the mission-acceptance prompt appeared for the first one and was accepted, but before switching to the "arm your troops" screen, the second Triton reached its target and a second mission-acceptance prompt appeared.

Is that correct?

#4 Tsathoggua

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 10:56 AM

Almost, but not quite. The first triton landed at the largest craft, a dreadnought, carrying my primary assault squad, tank and psi division. All of them seasoned hard bastards enough that engaging a dreadnought in a night mission, which was expected at the time, is more likely to end up as a 'anybody carrying any more phosphorus shells????' sort of occasion rather than a 'glurk! gag! puke in helmet! die' occasion. whilst the secondary team, not as experienced but with a commander rank psyker who is one of the earliest still surviving squad members on any base, supporting a trainee psi trooper with a strength in the 90s, rapidly turning into a walking, swimming, corpse factory and who's pulled as many asses out of fires nearly as he has triggers. This squad was sent to investigate a USO that had been shot down if smaller size although as a priority, since the sneaky little gits have been really going hard at it trying to successfully pull off an infiltration. Not likely to come in time though before a leviathan is built, a full complement consisting of exclusively battle-tested psyops forces, tanks and sufficient explosives and heavy artillery to turn the gulf of mexico into the little brother of the new and improved gulf of n.america, or at least where it used to be' Got the primary team 'accept mission y/n' screen and then whilst it was up, the secondary team accept/deny screen came up.
Went yes for both, needed the inlfiltrators dealt with and wasn't too enthusiastic about another battleship/dreadnought unceasing onslaught taking as many PWT torpedoes as several bases twinned fully staffed workshops were turning out for the base craft at maximum rate affordable whilst leaving money for the x-com personnel's paychecks, hardware and other engineers at bases building a fleet of manta interceptors and a leviathan plus a bunch of sonic tanks, mag-ion armor and sufficient motion trackers and MC disruptors for the ground troops, bombardment shields accompanying a hornet's nest of PWT turrets just waiting for some incautious green bugger USO pilot to try it on, likely usually enough for 25-45 shots counting the bombardment shield in many cases. Many of the garrison troopers haven't seen action though. Tooled up heavily enough and enough tanks, but green still since little gets the chance to approach much less try to land. Running manta patrols around the globe scouting for enemy bases and any USOs out of base detection range,

In the end, for others, what happened was that it appeared as though the craft did, actually, hit the seafloor at the same time, because the smaller craft ended up going first but after completing the mission the other, primary craft automatically returned to base, on 'low fuel' (nothing like low in actual fact so thats doubtless why IMO) as if it had been in action and one way or the other finished the job. Only no score, corpses, loot, MIA/KIA troops etc. sod all)

#5 magic9mushroom

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 08:33 AM

View PostTsathoggua, on 03 July 2017 - 10:56 AM, said:

Almost, but not quite. The first triton landed at the largest craft, a dreadnought, carrying my primary assault squad, tank and psi division. All of them seasoned hard bastards enough that engaging a dreadnought in a night mission, which was expected at the time, is more likely to end up as a 'anybody carrying any more phosphorus shells????' sort of occasion rather than a 'glurk! gag! puke in helmet! die' occasion. whilst the secondary team, not as experienced but with a commander rank psyker who is one of the earliest still surviving squad members on any base, supporting a trainee psi trooper with a strength in the 90s, rapidly turning into a walking, swimming, corpse factory and who's pulled as many asses out of fires nearly as he has triggers. This squad was sent to investigate a USO that had been shot down if smaller size although as a priority, since the sneaky little gits have been really going hard at it trying to successfully pull off an infiltration. Not likely to come in time though before a leviathan is built, a full complement consisting of exclusively battle-tested psyops forces, tanks and sufficient explosives and heavy artillery to turn the gulf of mexico into the little brother of the new and improved gulf of n.america, or at least where it used to be' Got the primary team 'accept mission y/n' screen and then whilst it was up, the secondary team accept/deny screen came up.
Went yes for both, needed the inlfiltrators dealt with and wasn't too enthusiastic about another battleship/dreadnought unceasing onslaught taking as many PWT torpedoes as several bases twinned fully staffed workshops were turning out for the base craft at maximum rate affordable whilst leaving money for the x-com personnel's paychecks, hardware and other engineers at bases building a fleet of manta interceptors and a leviathan plus a bunch of sonic tanks, mag-ion armor and sufficient motion trackers and MC disruptors for the ground troops, bombardment shields accompanying a hornet's nest of PWT turrets just waiting for some incautious green bugger USO pilot to try it on, likely usually enough for 25-45 shots counting the bombardment shield in many cases. Many of the garrison troopers haven't seen action though. Tooled up heavily enough and enough tanks, but green still since little gets the chance to approach much less try to land. Running manta patrols around the globe scouting for enemy bases and any USOs out of base detection range,

In the end, for others, what happened was that it appeared as though the craft did, actually, hit the seafloor at the same time, because the smaller craft ended up going first but after completing the mission the other, primary craft automatically returned to base, on 'low fuel' (nothing like low in actual fact so thats doubtless why IMO) as if it had been in action and one way or the other finished the job. Only no score, corpses, loot, MIA/KIA troops etc. sod all)

1) Pro tip. If you're asking for help, and someone needs a couple of details clarified, don't bury those details in 400 words of irrelevant blather. You do this every single time and it's really fucking annoying, which makes me and probably others sorely tempted to just not bother helping you at all. Yes, I know you have brain damage, and it's moderately dickish of me to call you out like this, but on the other hand we are helping you out of the goodness of our hearts and it would be really nice of you to make that easier for us.

2) I still don't know 100% what the situation is (my best guess at interpreting your rambling story is that both confirmation windows popped up simultaneously) but it sounds like it's rare enough that nobody knows the answers (in particular, players often don't bother with a second Triton, rendering what you appear to be describing impossible). Sorry about that. A savegame and/or exact description might help us better understand this for the future.

3) While I'm at it, though, I will give you this piece of advice: Craft P.W.T. Cannons are useless. Use Sonic Oscillators instead. Firstly, the P.W.T. Cannon can only fire two shots before needing to reload, which means a single craft using them is incapable of downing Large and Very Large subs; a Sonic Oscillator, by contrast, has so much ammo that you'll never run out unless abusing the infinite-fuel bug. Secondly, that P.W.T. Cannon ammo eats 4 Zrbite a pop, while the Sonic Oscillator recharges for free. The Sonic Oscillator does cost 15 Zrbite, but that's a flat cost; after 10 interceptions, that's a pittance compared to the 48-88 Zrbite you'd have to spend to keep the P.W.T. Cannon supplied (manufacturing ammo also uses up your technicians' valuable time). The P.W.T. Cannon does have a higher range and DPS, but these advantages are largely illusory. The Sonic Oscillator already outranges every alien sub except the Dreadnought, and has enough DPS to defeat them before they can escape; while extra range and DPS would be very handy against the Dreadnought to reduce damage taken, the P.W.T. Cannon still doesn't outrange the Dreadnought and its lack of ammunition makes any interception attempt on a Dreadnought with one or two X-Com subs futile anyway.

#6 Tsathoggua

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 05:04 PM

Well excuse ME for an attempt at a humorous rendition of the event in question.

There is no need to descend to insults based upon that. It is the first resort of the lowest common denominator. And to be quite honest, I've got a few things I'd just as soon say in reply, only I will be the better man and refrain from roasting you alive with a torrent of flaming. This time, anyway. Don't expect me to hold back should you continue to dole out insult when none has been offered to you. I'm not going to start trouble, but don't think I won't finish it if somebody, you, or anybody else is determined to shove it down my throat. Patronizing git.

And as for the PWT cannon has its advantages, it comes into its own as a second weapon for the manta in particular, especially when a small fleet of 3-5 of them is kept ready as a fast interceptor reaction squad since they are able to quickly outpace the dreadnoughts nine times out of ten, mounting a paired PWT/sonic oscillator whilst keeping some craft in reserve mounting twinned sonic oscillators to take down anything up to large-sized craft, which it outranges and nearly always if going for a long range attack will take them down quick enough and from too far away to have to worry about return fire, whilst the PWT shells pack a lot of punch in a single shot, and when facing something as powerful and heavily armed/armored as a dreadnought or battleship the amount of damage they can deliver in a single shot is significant enough that it is in my experience, far preferable to be able to deal out as much damage as quickly as possible. Whilst both weapons allow for return fire, with 2-3 mantas loaded with a PWT and sonic oscillator, it adds up. And if you only have barracuda available there is every chance that one hit will wipe out the interceptor entirely before it has had the chance to get off more than a couple of shots, so IMO its better to make them count, that way you have more chance of at least keeping the craft, albeit badly damaged. I don't mean to send in a single craft, but when there is a dreadnought on the scene it is time to dogpile the thing and hit it with everything you've got. 2 hits from a PWT might not do it, but 3-4 ships at once, then with only barracuda available then even a dreadnought has enough opposition to worry about, especially iif at least one craft has a sonic oscillator mounted.

Oh and as for writing in a lengthy style, I always have done to some degree. But in part, you can blame some of it on strong pain medication, as well as making me fall asleep fairly often and losing track, it for whatever reason tends to do that to me. Not got much of a choice in that respect, been on it for years, after a fall that resulted in my badly damaging my knee joint, after getting a dirty great big spike of glass penetrating into the knee joint, through the tendon. Further surgery made it worse, and left me with nerve damage on top of the already extant problems. Changed the way I walk to compensate and that took both my hips with it. So I really haven't got much of an option if I want to be properly mobile. And nor, just to make a post, can I just decide not to take it. I doubt I need to explain the fact that abruptly ceasing large doses of morphine and oxycodone results in the person doing it having to endure an extremely unpleasant experience. And just to post on a forum, I am not going to subject myself to that, for you, or for anybody else.

I don't go out of my way to TRY and piss people off. But, for the reason mentioned above, sometimes posts do end up getting too long. And yes, it was dickish, certainly in the way that you did so.

#7 NKF

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 06:23 AM

Chill folks. No need to make things personal.

While I do agree somewhat with it being a bit difficult to read through a lot of narrative to identify the question being asked, I am really in no position to criticise as I used to be known for writing three-pager replies to simple questions when I was new to the X-Com community. Posted Image Besides, we all have our peculiarities. If you find it easier, don't let that stop you.

Just keep in mind that some netizens like things short, sharp and sweet in our modern society with their large amounts of leisure time afforded by modern technology, So perhaps put the question first before elaborating on the scenario. Posted Image

For PWT's - strictly from a min-max standpoint, the Sonic Oscillator is king and nothing else matters. From a less gamey perspective, if you have plenty of Zrbite, then go for it. Once you reach the point of the game when you're gathering more Zrbite than you need, then there shouldn't be a problem building the way overpriced torpedoes. If only for convenience sake than anything else.  I mean, why shoot down a very-small or small sub when you can blow it up and earn double shoot-down points?

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#8 magic9mushroom

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 11:12 AM

View PostNKF, on 17 July 2017 - 06:23 AM, said:

I mean, why shoot down a very-small or small sub when you can blow it up and earn double shoot-down points?

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For the Survey Ship, the Sonic Oscillator has a 100% destruction rate making the point moot. IIRC the points from shootdown+recovery are better than destruction for Escort and Cruiser, though for an Escort whose IBA blew up it'd be close. Of course, most people get lazy in the latter stages of a game when one is running out the clock on M.C. screening before the colony assault, and running out the clock on R&D after said assault to hit T'leth, so it's a fair point.

#9 Tsathoggua

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 06:25 PM

When you have reached past the point any interrogation is going to give you anything, does the completion of research itself still give any score if nothing is added to the ufopaedia?

Anyhow (thought I posted this already)

But finally got to T'leth and found it if anything overly easy, despite (is this normal?) losing almost all ammunition bar a few DPL shells, MC disruptors, a few grenades and close combat weapons, finding the ammo strewn (up in the air of all places, would never have seen it if not using mag-ion armor) all over the base) and relying until then on capture of DPL rounds to save for the final showdown, plus 3 sonic tanks, but mostly on MC-ing xarquid and deep ones and using their inbuilt weapons to cut through walls so as to save the HE ammo to take out the power generators for the alien's life support, and save tank ammo because I expected the last section to be crawling, instead of just firing a handful of torpedoes, killing two, maybe 3 aliens and finishing the job in 2-3 turns. Moving on to apocalypse again now.

#10 NKF

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Posted 22 July 2017 - 09:29 PM

Research points are awarded per Ufopaedia topic obtained so you will not earn any points if nothing appears from the interrogation.

You've just experienced the nerfed XComutil version of T'Leth. The original version of the last level is a linear dungeon where you slog through all the enemies until you reach the Sleeper's chamber in the middle. It's not as hard as a standard colony assault, but the lack of an overhead map and forced ironman rules can make it a challenge for someone relatively new to the series.

With the X-Comutil version, holes are knocked out all of the map modules to open up the entire map. You can literally shell the batteries around the coffin on turn 1 with DPLs and skip the entire level.

The equipment being strewn about is an XComutil bug. It appear to be an unintended consequence of the fix for the 2-parter equipment recovery bug for the early unpatched version of TFTD.

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#11 magic9mushroom

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Posted 23 July 2017 - 05:25 AM

View PostTsathoggua, on 22 July 2017 - 06:25 PM, said:

When you have reached past the point any interrogation is going to give you anything, does the completion of research itself still give any score if nothing is added to the ufopaedia?

No. The only reason to research an alien when it won't give you any new information is if your Alien Containment is full and you need a slot unclogged in order to capture and interrogate a different alien (Alien Containment is bugged; the limit is 50 aliens total rather than 10 per Alien Containment, so building more Alien Containments and/or shuffling aliens around between bases won't help).

Incidentally, this post was much easier to read; thanks.

#12 Tsathoggua

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 09:38 AM

I hadn't realized it was bugged. It was somewhat of an anticlimax, albeit with a feeling of 'finally gotcha ya big green lovecraftian git', and that was pretty much the tactic taken. The previous two levels of T'leth were taken mostly with vibroblades, and the help of 3 sonic tanks, which of course don't lose the ammo, immobilizing the enemy with psionics (and occasionally wreaking bloody havoc by panicking xarquid. They seem to have a tendency rather than to shut down, to go berserk, and start firing off a massive amount of shots. In a room packed full of lobstermen, aquatoids etc. a xarquid going nutso at close quarters can clear it out pretty quickly. As well as blowing shortcuts through walls and saving on the ammo.

Noticed two other odd things. Two out of all the xarquid down there had autofire capability. The rest, didn't. Those in particular..are there MEANT to be 'special forces' xarquid in t'leth? because I don't THINK I've seen them have autofire elsewhere. And deep ones...despite taking over deep ones, they seem under x-com control to lose both the arc-fire character of their weapon discharge, and to be packing a sonic weapon. They had to be, since the discharge took the form of a direct point-to-point line of sight attack that did heavy to massive damage to both terrain and organic targets, whilst they are, along with celatid in the first war, possessed of unique damage types whilst under alien control, and the aliens according to the x-com wiki have a sky high resistance to electrical attack damage to the point where it would be useless if an electric weapon (unlike celatid venom, which really makes a mess of even heavily armored units, human or alien, inaccurate but very damaging. I'd hate to be a celatid with allergies, just imagine restraining a sneeze like THAT inside your head!. Well I'd hate to be a brainless, eyeless, faceless pulsating floating poisonous, twitching kidney anyway, but....:P)


But on getting to the last level of T'leth, all it took was taking control of a tentaculate to bring it in range of the tank guns, then leveling the stasis chamber with a massive, coordinated DPL strike, Took just two, at most, three x-com turns to wipe the place off the face of the earth. I was expecting heavy fighting, not insufficient resistance to ever even get a shot off.

#13 magic9mushroom

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 10:03 AM

The extra shots were probably not autofire but rather a large number of normal shots. Berserk status can give 255 TU under some circumstances, which allows for absurd numbers of shots since the TU cost to shoot stays the same.

Also, while being able to walk straight into the crypt might be something of an anticlimax, I can guarantee you that running your troops through the space-filling path the level normally is, fighting a single alien every two turns or so, is very boring. Particularly since you can't save and come back to it.

EDIT: See Tycho's post here for an explanation of why Berserk units can shoot more than normal (up to 10 shots).

#14 NKF

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 08:02 AM

In regards to the Deep-One's arcing attack, the AI can arc the attack because it uses its own firing routines rather than the player. When you fire it, you're using the firing mode that applies to your units. The AI switches the bullet to a thrown projectile if it detects the selected unit is a Deep One.

I don't remember if the same applies to the Celatid's attack in UFO, but it certainly is the case in TFTD.

Alien innate weapons don't have graphics like the SWS turrets, so they generally use place-holders like the weapon clips. They don't necessarily correspond to the damage of the innate weapon.

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#15 Zombie

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 03:53 PM

View PostNKF, on 28 July 2017 - 08:02 AM, said:

In regards to the Deep-One's arcing attack, the AI can arc the attack because it uses its own firing routines rather than the player. When you fire it, you're using the firing mode that applies to your units. The AI switches the bullet to a thrown projectile if it detects the selected unit is a Deep One.

I don't remember if the same applies to the Celatid's attack in UFO, but it certainly is the case in TFTD.

Not sure either offhand, but I do remember having difficulty shooting the Celatid's weapon at something point blank. For some reason it would always shoot at the ground and not hit the target (targeting issue maybe)? I really liked the theory of a MC'd Celatid for a couple reasons:
  • It was a 1x1 alien so you could bring it into areas where other terror units couldn't fit.
  • It had an innate fire able weapon which was stupidly powerful.

View PostNKF, on 28 July 2017 - 08:02 AM, said:

Alien innate weapons don't have graphics like the SWS turrets, so they generally use place-holders like the weapon clips. They don't necessarily correspond to the damage of the innate weapon.

That reminds me of the Sectopod which does laser damage but the bolt looks like plasma. Posted Image

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#16 magic9mushroom

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Posted 29 July 2017 - 02:55 AM

View PostZombie, on 28 July 2017 - 03:53 PM, said:

Not sure either offhand, but I do remember having difficulty shooting the Celatid's weapon at something point blank. For some reason it would always shoot at the ground and not hit the target (targeting issue maybe)?

It was confirmed a couple of years back that the Celatid's poor accuracy stems from targetting the ground instead of the unit. One would presume difficulties in hitting things with MCed Celatids stem from the same bug.

I hear OpenXCom fixed the bug and as such Celatids become much more dangerous (their actual accuracy is sky-high).

#17 silencer_pl

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Posted 29 July 2017 - 07:07 AM

Not only OpenXcom fixed it's accuracy I think they replaced their arc shot with flat shot? Or at least made them shoot indoors from long range.
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

#18 Tsathoggua

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Posted 29 July 2017 - 09:08 AM

Not sure regarding open x-com and celatids, they certainly were more dangerous on the battlefield however.

Had noticed the tank/clip icon switching

And with the two xarquid that I mentioned, I didn't berserk them with psionics, but took control (granted I usually avoid it as it seems to count as losing a tank or tanks (hadn't figured out which) when returned to alien control, I presume as they remain partially controlled sometimes if cracking the psionic whip to drive them harder what with the low TU of a xarquid. But on going to fire, the two of them had 'auto shot' distinctly and quite definitely present, at a cost of 3-5 AP or so compared to a single shot. I know of the bug, but this was with an alien, twice, under direct control (two different individual xarquid) the rest of those encountered in T'leth lacked the autofire capacity but there were the two of them, second level I think and they were dangerous enough to force them close enough after shooting through a wall (by the MC'ed xarquid) to be able to take them down with DPL rounds, despite the scarcity of the ammunition at the time, having only discovered most of my troops  magazines floating around in the air by chance just before entering the last level. When I DID berserk those two they went absolutely mental, destroying most of their surroundings and no small number of aliens in the process. The rest of them hadn't got autofire capability, just the two them. Had one of those things gone berserk or else started reaction firing
way the two of them did just one would have wiped out the entire squad if within range without much difficulty.


Is this a known bug, or intentional?

#19 magic9mushroom

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Posted 29 July 2017 - 10:51 PM

View PostTsathoggua, on 29 July 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

Is this a known bug, or intentional?

My first guess, if this is still your corrupted copy, is that it's neither but is instead a result of said data corruption.

#20 NKF

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 02:35 AM

We never really collected a lot of data on the TFTD built in weapons for the wiki, so I thought I'd do a bit of digging into the game executable and have come back realizing there is still a bit of work to be done here.

There is one weapon set that has the auto-fire mode mentioned, and this is the turret that used to belong to the Sectopod that does laser damage (Gauss in TFTD). If a Xarquid did get an autofire weapon, then this would be it since it is the weapon that comes immediately after the weapon normally assigned to Xarquids. As XComutil is involved, and as it does have to manage the number of enemies for its custom difficulties, it's possible it might have botched a substitution,

The funny thing is, and this is important, the auto-fire weapon I mentioned is also the weapon the Deep One is assigned by default. It does Gauss damage - not Electric Shock.

One other thing I noticed while I was looking into the innate weapons is that the weapon strengths for the Coelacanth Gas Cannon and Aqua Jet do not agree with their Ufopedia entries. It's probably not 'new' news, but certainly the first time I've noticed this myself.

- NKF
NKF, narrow minded fuddy duddy who refuses to let go of the past and will not accept anything newer than 1979.




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