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HE pack timer failure


Tsathoggua

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Just had a DAMN close call, nearly losing my most talented psi user and another, less experienced but still pretty strong one whilst setting breaching charges in the roof of a large UFO shot down previously by the interceptors. What happened was that four charges were each set, two apiece, by dropping them and then legging it to the edge of the UFO, grabbing their psi-amps, and dropping down to ground level, leaving their weapon on the roof to save time and get clear. Damn lucky that they did so, and that they dropped rather than moved away otherwise, despite priming the charges for five turns, the damn things went off straight away with the expected big kablooey, but not the expected time delay. Had to prime them over several turns, but the men both dropped their loads, three times each, both men laying two charges, the third load dropped by each man was in their power armor, as the charges went off straight away the moment they got clear of the blast radius. If it wasn't for the decision of the commander to have them drop their weapons the previous turn to maximize time units, and to not pick them up the second turn as they scarpered after setting the charges, then the flying suits they wore would have been worn by two supersized servings of psyker slushpuppy, to be served up by the aliens post-battle assuming the remaining four troopers and the remaining (laser) tank, having lost the cannon chassis to some sort of unseen assault (commander nodded out and the turn in question beganb as, but ended while he was still gouching, so what kind of attack he isn't sure of, although the senior soldier present on the battlefield did root out the responsible sectoid by means of a pair of blaster bombs guided into the dark area of the map to the only area unsighted where line of sight would permit an alien to have opened fire, and of course, being that its sectoids being fought then the little sneak didn't stand a chance, and probably won't be recovered by the cleanup crew. Not unless they brought a very big sponge.

 

They only JUST got clear in time, there was no delay whatsoever, the charges went off immediately on ending the same turn they were set.

Surely the fuses didn't start counting down while the charges were still held in the agent's' hands? it took a few turns to prime both charges, but they were all four of them dropped on that same turn, not thrown, and then the psykers setting them ran to the edge of the UFO and dropped straight down to the ground. And if that wasn't enough for them to shit their britches, then they immediately came under fire from a sectoid sniper loosing off with its heavy plasma from its concealed position. Tank scouting couldn't see, less than 8HP left, either 6 or 7HP, but the armor held, moved tank out of the way, men realized oh crap! we left our plasma guns behind, and of course theres a snowballs chance in hell of retrieval, their having been caught close to ground zero of the huge blast. So each of them threw grenades, failed to root the sniper out, but luckily, an admittedly less capable agent where blaster launchers are concerned, strength-wise, had it on the ground, loaded, and had enough TU to pick it up and fire it without moving or turning, this time the attack DID succeed in extirpating the sniper or snipers, leaving little behind but a heavy plasma. That was retrieved by one of the less valuable troopers that had just fired the blaster launcher the over the next turn whilst the men shot straight back up to the top of the UFO and ducked down, dropping smoke canisters, and tossing a pair of alien grenades through the holes breached in the roof to avoid any unpleasant little presents of the same kind, or any plasma fire or (not that it would likely be effective against the soldiers who set the charges in the first place, any psionic assaults, unless from a very high ranking sectoid, as the psi strength of both is high. One grenade down a breached hole was followed up by a scream; so no psyker monkeybusiness was forthcoming.

 

 

What gives? those charges should NOT have behaved that way! Messrs Murphy and Sod both (of eponymous law fame) are pissed no doubt and will be looking to come collect, with interest, now that the men got away with it. But only by the skin of their teeth.

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You said you primed the charges over several turns. The countdown continues while you're holding it, and the count is unintuitive (it decrements by 1 on your turn and also by 1 on the alien turn; if you throw a grenade with a timer of 0, it will explode at the end of your turn, but with a timer of 1 it will explode at the end of the aliens' turn, before you get another turn).
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Ah grenade timers. Much fun. Much of the confusion is caused by the fact that the game maintains two turn counters, and the one that you see between turns is not the same one used by the grenade timer. The actual game counter counts the individual turns and increments by 1 each time you and the computer exchange places.As in: my turn (turn 1), your turn (turn 2), my turn (turn 3), your turn (turn 4) and so on.

 

The turn number that you see reported each time you end the turn is the count of how many exchanges of turns have passed so far. It's about half the number actual turns that have passed. Say if you see the game report that is Turn 16, the real number of turns that have passed will be 32 (from 16 x 2). This is the counter that we as the human player often measure the game by when turns are discussed. That is, right up until we have to work with grenades.

 

With grenade type explosives, there are two conditions that must be satisfied before they can explode. The first is that the current turn is equal to or greater than the grenade's 'detonate-by' condition. The second condition is that the grenade is on the ground. Once the turn ends and both conditions are satisfied, it can then go boom.

 

What do I mean by 'detonate-by'? The game doesn't tell you this, but when you are setting a grenade timer, you're not really setting a countdown timer. Instead you're setting the grenade's 'detonate-by' condition. Think of it as a 'best-before' date. wink.png

 

Say you set the grenade to detonate in 5 ticks. The grenade's detonate-by condition will be set as the current turn + 5. With the previous example of turn 32, the grenade will be due to explode from turn 37 (32 + 5). Once the current turn is equal or greater than this number, then the first condition for the grenade to explode will be met.

 

The second condition of being on the ground can be treated as a sort of dead-man's switch where the grenade will continue to be 'safe' as long as it is in your inventory even if the 'detonate-by' condition has long passed.

 

tl;dr

  1. Each Grenade counter tick is worth half-a-turn.
  2. Countdown is immediate.
  3. Holding onto a grenade allows it to stay 'safe' long after countdown has lapsed.

- NKF

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Yes, the charges were primed over two turns I think, maybe three, but not four or five turns (both sides included here)

 

Part of the reason both the members of the psi-corps temporarily reassigned the task of demolitions was for breaching an entryway for themselves and the rest of the flying suit-equipped shock-troops of the psi-corps, few in number but very lethal, many TUs, great strength, skilled snipers, well versed in almost any manner of heavy weaponry both up close and at great range, anything from explosive munitions to incendiaries, blaster launchers to sniping with heavy laser and plasma weaponry, but

most dangerous with their psi-amps. Intending to cut a hole right above the command bridge of the large and well-armed, bug-infested ship then drop another HE pack right down the hole, sterilizing the entryway, then drop down, open the door from the inside without going out, in order to attract no reaction fire and drop anything immediately behind the doorway, amidst smoke and AC-IC rounds, grenade the hallway past the door and take the UFO from the bridge down rather than risk storming the craft via the front door, so as to be able to disarm any resistance and use the enemy as scouts, as well as drop HE packs and alien grenades right down the grav lifts, supported by the two lightly armored scouts working up once the way is cleared, plus the commander himself following up behind with his by now infamous blaster launcher.

 

 

The initial HE packs went off prematurely though i'm sure of it. Never seen it happen with other grenades only the big HE charges. are the timers different on these?

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Thanks NKF, although I was aware of the mechanics. The charges were ONLY on the ground twice each, once when two charges per psyker were laid out on their respective tile targets, whilst the men stashed even their psi-amps on the edge of the UFO roof, moved back to the unset HE packs, tossed then less weighed down, primed the grenades, holding on to them, one each hand, dropping them on target then legging it once the next turn elapsed in full.

 

Both pairs of HEs went off the moment the end turn button was pressed. This should not have happened. Timer only goes down per tick if the primed explosive is not held or carried, or if dropped and picked up again BEFORE priming or release then that should have paused the timer.

 

Doesn't go down for say, alien or regular or smoke grenades if they haven't yet been released so why with the demo packs.

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Both pairs of HEs went off the moment the end turn button was pressed. This should not have happened. Timer only goes down per tick if the primed explosive is not held or carried, or if dropped and picked up again BEFORE priming or release then that should have paused the timer.

Wrong. It continues to count down when held. Holding it only prevents it from exploding.

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What magic9mushroom said is correct, the timer begins once it leaves a soldier's hands. It'll continue ticking down until it explodes or hits 0 while in a soldier's hands again in which case it'll stay at that timer value until it touches the ground. wink.png

 

- Zombie

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Zombie-does that also mean than an UNprimed charge or grenade gets kind of a pre-priming countdown? meaning that by analogy the fuse burns down BEFORE the timer is ever set, but that the fuse puts itself out and stops burning either the tick or turn before it would explode once it HAS been primed?

 

Because don't forget that in this instance the two soldiers dropped the UNPRIMED charges, four in total, onto the roof along with their plasma cannons and their psi-amps, the guns just tossed, as the area was thought to be clear, given that all but scraps of cover remained and the area lit up by flares. Psi-amps were on the other hand stashed carefully at the edge of the UFO on the last edge tile of the roof

so the two psyker/temp. sappers could pick them up right before disappearing off the roof. This shedding of most kit was done to ensure

as many TU as possible so those charges could be set for delay in the minimum of turns, each man picking up one of the two unprimed HE packs from the floor/roof and setting delay to 5. Then next turn picking up the second and doing the same.The primed charges stayed in the hands of the agents until placement, done by dropping one each where they stood, and dropping the other in place as they split the scene.

 

Don't explosives have to leave the hands (or inventory if relevant. This time it was not) and touch the ground for the timer countdown to initiate? both charges only did so when actually placed, once primed, only unprimed bombs ever touched the ground of the UFO roof.

then the men did a runner, pausing only to grab their irreplaceable (on the field of combat) psi amps before dropping down right to the floor.

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Zombie-does that also mean than an UNprimed charge or grenade gets kind of a pre-priming countdown? meaning that by analogy the fuse burns down BEFORE the timer is ever set, but that the fuse puts itself out and stops burning either the tick or turn before it would explode once it HAS been primed?

 

No, grenades are basically just an item when unprimed. They should start this way from the beginning of the mission. If they aren't, then something is messing (or messed) with your OBDATA.DAT file as that's where the primer value is stored.

 

Don't explosives have to leave the hands (or inventory if relevant. This time it was not) and touch the ground for the timer countdown to initiate? both charges only did so when actually placed, once primed, only unprimed bombs ever touched the ground of the UFO roof.

 

Yes, once the grenade is primed and the timer set, the countdown only begins once the grenade is thrown or dropped. Once that condition is met, the timer starts and doesn't stop until it reaches 0. In order to explode, it must not be in a soldier's inventory anymore, typically this means it'll be on the ground, but it could be anywhere in the battlescape (such as steps, ceilings, floors, overhangs etc).

 

- Zombie

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With grenade type explosives, there are two conditions that must be satisfied before they can explode. The first is that the current turn is equal to or greater than the grenade's 'detonate-by' condition.

 

What do I mean by 'detonate-by'? The game doesn't tell you this, but when you are setting a grenade timer, you're not really setting a countdown timer. Instead you're setting the grenade's 'detonate-by' condition. Think of it as a 'best-before' date. wink.png

 

Had a day to think about this, and thought up of an analogy that will hopefully unwind the obfuscation presented in the above. Take an egg timer and an alarm clock for example.

 

In the case of the egg timer, you can set how long the timer will count down before sounding the bell. You can stall the countdown until you are ready for it to begin.

 

In the case of the alarm clock, you're setting the condition when the alarm will go off. All the while you are doing this, time will continue to pass.

 

Think of grenade priming in X-com UFO and TFTD as if you were setting an alarm clock, not an egg timer. wink.png

 

- NKF

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I hate to correct the great Zombie, but I just tested this myself to be sure. And, thankfully, NKF agrees with me.

What magic9mushroom said is correct,

Right.

the timer begins once it leaves a soldier's hands. It'll continue ticking down until it explodes or hits 0 while in a soldier's hands again in which case it'll stay at that timer value until it touches the ground. wink.png

 

- Zombie

Wrong (you misinterpreted what I said; what I said was right, but this is wrong).

Yes, once the grenade is primed and the timer set, the countdown only begins once the grenade is thrown or dropped.

Wrong.

Had a day to think about this, and thought up of an analogy that will hopefully unwind the obfuscation presented in the above. Take an egg timer and an alarm clock for example.

 

In the case of the egg timer, you can set how long the timer will count down before sounding the bell. You can stall the countdown until you are ready for it to begin.

 

In the case of the alarm clock, you're setting the condition when the alarm will go off. All the while you are doing this, time will continue to pass.

 

Think of grenade priming in X-com UFO and TFTD as if you were setting an alarm clock, not an egg timer. wink.png

 

- NKF

Right.

 

 

The grenade starts ticking as soon as you arm it. There is no relation between the timer and whether it is held. The only importance of whether it's held is that grenades cannot explode while held.

 

So if you set the timer to 5, end turn without throwing it, end turn again, the timer is now at 1 (two of your turns, two alien turns) - holding onto it had no effect on the countdown. If you then throw it, the timer will be at 1; it will not explode when you end your turn, but it will explode at the end of the alien turn. If you instead hold onto it for 1 more turn, the timer will reach 0 but it won't explode because it's held. If the next turn, you throw it, the grenade will now explode at the end of your turn since the timer's already run out.

 

Holding onto a grenade does NOT prevent the timer from starting. It only prevents the grenade from exploding.

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Thanks guys, I hadn't realized that about timers, assumed that it was simply (haha, this is X-com, who the devil am I kidding!) setting a delay, to be initiated when one, so to speak, pulls the pin and throws (Tsathoggua pictures some soon-to-be-ex rookie tossing a grenade pin with all his idiot might at the nearest sectoid and breathing a huge sigh of relief when he survives the reaction fire.....)
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