X-Com Apocalypse LP


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#21 Zombie

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Posted 13 November 2015 - 12:52 AM

I just wonder if it's better to use two larger groups of soldiers instead of three? From what I've seen so far from your playthrough, two groups get placed together while the third is off somewhere else. Two might be better than three, though I also wonder if four smaller "hunter squads" would be even better than that. If the game is randomly inserting the groups on the map, then it may be beneficial to go with many small squads instead.

My thinking was that if a smaller group gets placed far off on the map loaded with aliens that you would be able to hold them off till reinforcements arrive, or tactically withdraw a little to allow another group to huff it over there. If there are only small pockets of aliens, then more groups are probably beneficial as you can search the map faster and redistribute groups as aliens are found (plus you might be able to get the aliens in a crossfire). I was also thinking of keeping three groups, but make one larger and the other two smaller. Assuming the smaller groups have the same number of soldiers as the 4-group squad, then it shouldn't be too difficult if you can drag the aliens back to the big group or get the big group over to the aliens.

Those are just some thoughts on squad size. NKF maybe can give a little insight on this. Posted Image

- Zombie

My X-COM Patch Kit For UFO Defense | Emergency XCOM Meeting spoof on YouTube




JellyfishGreen said:

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!

#22 Nookrium

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Posted 13 November 2015 - 03:54 AM

View PostZombie, on 13 November 2015 - 12:52 AM, said:

I just wonder if it's better to use two larger groups of soldiers instead of three?

I'm still trying to figure out what works best.  The downside to using 3 man groups is that is one less soldier with reaction fire to take down a brain sucker (or popper), however, it could help spot the aliens quicker which is ideal because each race spawns together (I believe).

I'm thinking of trying 2 groups of 6 for the first downed UFO I come across, 1 group for each side of the UFO.  As long as it's not too big of a herd, 1 popper could really cause a problem.

I'll eagerly await NKF's response too ;)

#23 silencer_pl

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Posted 13 November 2015 - 06:34 AM

When I play normal game in Apocalypse I only use 2 groups of 6 people. In standard missions they are independent group while in UFOs if possible attack from both sides. Generally that's only possible for Transport UFO, and the rest of UFOs have same entrance.
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#24 NKF

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Posted 13 November 2015 - 07:39 AM

I actually don't have a great deal to say about the squad composition, as it is definitely something you have to get the feel for yourself and work with what is most comfortable. It can vary depending on squad size, mission type, game mode, etc. In turn based, the current system seems to be working well so far. In real time, having fewer teams but with more squad members may be easier to manage.

If you're finding the view is too cluttered to spot small aliens like the Brainsuckers or the Hyperworms, use the overhead map.  

The Autocannon: I recommend sticking to AP bullets for your everyday needs and only switch to HE or incendiary ammo when you want those effects. Mainly to reduce friendly fire, blowing up recoverable items and keep property damage to a minimum. The AP rounds also make the Autocannon one of the most powerful non-explosive weapons you can buy until the Power Sword comes along.

For hyperworms, AP grenades may be the quicker way to deal with them as they seem to be quite adept at reacting to your autocannon-HE shots. Grenade handling doesn't take up as many TUs as it did in the earlier games.

Stun grapples are incredibly useful even if you aren't capturing enemies. They deal a lot of stun damage per attack and can knock most enemies very quickly. You can shoot at unconscious aliens with live rounds if you don't want to recover them. One condition to keep in mind when using the Stun Grapple is that it only deals stun damage up to but not beyond 180 health. Most small aliens, human enemies and humanoid aliens don't have anywhere near that much health. Multiworms and large aliens on the other hand have to be damaged before they fall unconscious - though having stun damage does mean that these aliens will be knocked out of the battle a bit earlier. There is also one very useful but rare alien that can only be properly stunned with it.

Rearming at the base only refills any spent ammo in the agent's guns. This honestly doesn't achieve a lot. Make it a habit to reload any ammo clips used up during the battles. Uniform gear layouts for the different roles helps heaps here.

And one thing before I forget: Training. Don't forget to assign your new hires to the Training Area so that they can earn stat boosts as long as their health is at 100% every midnight. Hybrids like Zombie may also want to spend some time in the Training Area before going into the Psi-Gym, as that's the only place you can increase the Strength stat in this game. The hybrid do want to be strong enough to lug their gear around without too much difficulty. Posted Image

- NKF
NKF, narrow minded fuddy duddy who refuses to let go of the past and will not accept anything newer than 1979.

#25 silencer_pl

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Posted 13 November 2015 - 10:53 AM

Only remember that training facility have capacity of 10 people.
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#26 Zombie

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 03:11 AM

Good tips about using AP instead of HE rounds NKF. I was always worried about collateral damage when I played Apoc, but it was so fun to watch buildings and floors collapse! ;)

Neptune: I pinned this topic. :)

- Zombie

My X-COM Patch Kit For UFO Defense | Emergency XCOM Meeting spoof on YouTube




JellyfishGreen said:

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!

#27 Nookrium

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 06:07 PM

View PostZombie, on 15 November 2015 - 03:11 AM, said:

Neptune: I pinned this topic. Posted Image
- Zombie
Thanks!  


Next Part - I am terrible at real-time... Let's do it!


#28 silencer_pl

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 07:58 PM

Real Time is not the best for capturing aliens. Specially if you don't know what you are doing ;)
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#29 Nookrium

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Posted 16 November 2015 - 12:18 AM

View Postsilencer_pl, on 15 November 2015 - 07:58 PM, said:

Real Time is not the best for capturing aliens. Specially if you don't know what you are doing Posted Image

I figured now was a good time to try it out, since I have another building I can investigate in TB to grab anything I couldn't stun this mission.

#30 Space Voyager

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Posted 16 November 2015 - 05:06 AM

Crash course is the best - in a game. The first thing I always did was set the behaviour to agressive. That way the soldiers do exactly what they are told. Otherwise they will try to go to cover and stuff, which hugely limits their performance. You know, the difference between a swat team and regular warzone.
The only time I let other behaviours kick in was when everybody got into combat and it was near impossible to guide them all. Then I'd set most to the middle behaviour mode and guide one group by hand on agressive.

#31 NKF

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Posted 16 November 2015 - 05:57 AM

I'm still in the middle of watching the battle - but where to start? I'll come back with something more comprehensive later but I do want to address one thing quickly:

Your grenade settings. Notice that you were setting them to explode 0.25 seconds. That means they were set to blow up at the very moment they left your agent's hands. This surprisingly does have its uses with the AP grenade and the various gas grenades. However, for your purposes as you are still learning the ropes for RT combat, I highly recommend sticking to the blast-on-impact setting for the time being. Right click the grenade instead of left clicking to active this, then just pick the target.

This setting can even be used on proximity mines to use them like ordinary grenades.

edit:

Some quick notes on the progress in the Cityscape so far:

See the top-left icon on the cityscape's control bar? Toggle it to focus the camera on which ever vehicle is currently selected in the tabs. Try it out. It's excellent for tracking a UFO or if you'd like to follow a particular ship to its destination.

Don't be afraid to split up your forces this early in the game. The UFOs you are encountering aren't too dangerous and each can be easily shot down by a couple of hoverbikes, so you can have all of the little UFOs targeted as the appear. It's the bigger ships that you'll be seeing at the start of the next week that will need focused attacks.

Try to experiment with mixed flight levels for your hoverbikes rather than have them all flying at the same level. This way they won't get in each others' way as often.

Park your hoverbikes (after they are repaired, of course!) in adjacent buildings to make use of the launch tubes. One bike per launch tube. This way your entire fleet can deploy at an instant when UFOs appear rather than one bike per launch tube. When they return home and you are waiting for the transport to land first, select the hoverbikes and tell them to wait to let the transport land first.

Since you started to build some bio transport modules to sell, be aware that there are some basic market mechanics put in to eventually foil the practice of manufacturing for profit. As you sell stuff, the selling price will gradually drop. I think it can go as low as 50% of the base sale price. I don't recall if it can go up again.

It's often better to hoard something and sell it all off in bulk while the price is still high rather than selling it in dribs and drabs. Particularly for alien gear. On the other hand, the Psiclone, which you can 'borrow' when raiding gang controlled buildings has a stable selling price. The same goes for the advanced ships you can build later on.

2nd edit:

Okay, perhaps not too much to add on the battle itself, as it's a learning experience.Posted Image Just keep practicing in real-time, and before long you won't feel so overwhelmed.

Now for a small bit on weapon handling:  

In real-time, a good part of the weapon handling is dealt with automatically by your agents. As long as you have either aimed, snap or auto firing modes selected, the agent will always react against any enemy targets they can see. If the agent is dual wielding weapons, both weapons weapons will be used. Weapon range permitting.

If you don't want this to happen and only want the agent to shoot when ordered, switch the firing mode off. Especially important when handling a rocket launcher. Posted Image

What happened in the last video when you were trying to capture the Multiworm is that you ordered a shot from the Stun Grapple. Once that was done, the soldier kept firing with both his weapons because his firing mode was still set to snapshots.

In this case, he needed to damage the Multiworm anyway as they have so much health that a single shot from a stun grapple was not going to do it.

- NKF
NKF, narrow minded fuddy duddy who refuses to let go of the past and will not accept anything newer than 1979.

#32 silencer_pl

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Posted 16 November 2015 - 06:55 AM

The price will go up slowly, but you can't sell particular item for quite a while. In fact the price can go above the starting price I believe.
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#33 Kir'jaeden

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Posted 16 November 2015 - 02:54 PM

Commander NeptuneNook!

Let me say some comments on your progress.
Firstly, sack humans and hire androids. Else the mind suckers, aliens which wield  egg launcher and eggs will eventually consume them all.
With androids, you need not worry about:
1) training, its impossible for them
2) Psy-attack, they have 100 psy-immunity
3) Mind suckers, these things ignore them
If you want psyonics in your squad, keep them on back line,  buy them Marsec hovering armor and place them on max height. It saves them from mind suckers and melee attackers. Also it will lower the damage from suicide self-explosive alien. If your market does not offer cool equip, make a visit to  some punks like Diablo etc. Anyway, they become your enemy quickly and they will have cool equip earlier than you will see it on market ;)
Aliens tend to pack in one massive bunch, so you do not need to disperse your troops. 1 or 2, max 3  groups will be sufficient.
Do not hesitate use the various explosives. So you will minimize the risk to your soldiers. Anyway, your initial weapon is inaccurate and your rookies are poor with accuracy.

#34 Nookrium

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Posted 16 November 2015 - 08:38 PM

I needed a Turn-Based confidence boost


View Postsilencer_pl, on 16 November 2015 - 06:55 AM, said:

The price will go up slowly, but you can't sell particular item for quite a while. In fact the price can go above the starting price I believe.
It will go above the original?  I know it drops slowly each time you sell, I was planning on hanging onto the Bio-Transports for a while and continue making them until something else comes up.

View PostNKF, on 16 November 2015 - 05:57 AM, said:

What happened in the last video when you were trying to capture the Multiworm is that you ordered a shot from the Stun Grapple. Once that was done, the soldier kept firing with both his weapons because his firing mode was still set to snapshots.
If I set it to No firing mode, then want him to stun, if I manually tell him to fire with the stun grapple will he continue to shoot until it's done/stunned?

Also, is there a "cancel orders' button?  Like if I tell someone to move somewhere on accident, instead of reclicking somewhere else.


View PostKir, on 16 November 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

Commander NeptuneNook!

Let me say some comments on your progress.
Firstly, sack humans and hire androids.

Hey Kir'jaeden.
From what I remember, androids are great early on, but lose their value late in the game.  Having these humans around and training will be much more valuable as time goes on.
Shouldn't I be careful with my explosives (depending on the building I'm in), I don't want to anger these organizations any more that they already will become.


One more thing, Transtellar is already a bit unhappy, they want a lot of money to bring them back to neutral... should I do it?  How difficult will it make it on me if they end up going hostile?

#35 silencer_pl

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Posted 16 November 2015 - 11:47 PM

Nook, it's just like in real market, the harder the item is to obtain, the more expensive it becomes. Every price change is affected each week. Also if I remember right, it's better to sell in bulky on Sunday, then every day. I don't remember if this was mentioned in ufopaedia. Should be.

Quote

If I set it to No firing mode, then want him to stun, if I manually tell him to fire with the stun grapple will he continue to shoot until it's done/stunned?


No. One shot per click.

Quote

Also, is there a "cancel orders' button?  Like if I tell someone to move somewhere on accident, instead of reclicking somewhere else.


RMB.
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

#36 Nookrium

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 05:24 AM

Hmm, I thought I tried RMB... I'll have to try it again.

#37 NKF

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 08:46 AM

Illegal fliers. Gangs will sometimes send ships to attack some organization they don't like - or each other. When this happens, one or two low level vehicles will appear and start firing at a building, then get wiped out as a swarm of more advanced ships come out and destroy them.

This is an event that you have to wait out, but certainly not something you have to attend to yourself unless they gang is attacking one of your buildings.

Since the hoverbike you had in this video had a purple icon on the map, the gang wasn't hostile towards you. They will be now though. Posted Image It's not a bad thing, it'll help you make friends with the groups that do not like them.

View PostNeptunesNookGames, on 16 November 2015 - 08:38 PM, said:

I needed a Turn-Based confidence boost

It's certainly easier to work with something a bit more familiar. However I hope you don't give up on real time. I recommend running some practice sessions in your own time to get the hang of it. One good way you can do this is to start a brand new game, hire an android and send it alone to the very first mission. Androids don't attract brainsucker attacks so they're essentially immune to everything on the first mission. Load up whatever weapons you want to test out, though I do recommend starting with double stun grapples and a variety of stun or smoke grenades for practice. Basically go in and see what does what. You're only working with one agent, but you can easily apply what you learn to a squad.

Be patient, pause a lot and take your time assessing everything.

Speaking of the Androids, they don't earn any experience. But they do have moderately good stats so can be decent fighters during any stage of the game. Think of them as humanoid HWP's.

The key feature of the androids is the fact that Brainsuckers and psionic enemies are unable to attack them. You'll probably want a few on the team for fighting the Psimorphs later on.

Quote

If I set it to No firing mode, then want him to stun, if I manually tell him to fire with the stun grapple will he continue to shoot until it's done/stunned?

Like Silencer said, this only shoots the weapon once. That said, you can still achieve the effect you want with a bit of inventory juggling. For example, carry your stun grapples in your backpack, then when you are up close to the target and ready to stun, go to the inventory and switch your weapons out for the grapples. Once armed, the agent will continuously fire at anything that gets within the 5 tile (I think) grapple range.

In both real-time and turn based, think of the active firing modes as a reaction fire toggle as well as a way to rebalance accuracy/firing speed.

Quote

One more thing, Transtellar is already a bit unhappy, they want a lot of money to bring them back to neutral... should I do it?  How difficult will it make it on me if they end up going hostile?

Ah - politics.

I highly recommend you only ever bribe companies to get them out of hostile status, otherwise it can get very expensive indeed. They'll still provide their services to you even if they are unfriendly.

At any other relation level, they may still be very unhappy with you even if the relations tab shows they are on good terms with you. Their public face is very different from their private face, and any lasting goodwill between you and them will take a while to build up.

If they are still angry with you, they may issue a demand for compensation that will instantly set them to neutral if you pay it, or they go hostile if you decline. You can imagine it getting quite expensive to bribe them up until they are allies, only to get a demand, pay even more and they are left neutral or unfriendly.

In short,  bribe only to get out of hostile relations, and pay up when they are asking for compensation. Try to improve relations naturally by dealing damage to their enemies. The enemy of my enemy is my friend and all that. Just be careful as this can get very messy indeed! Posted Image

For Transtellar, when they go hostile they stop providing taxies for any soldiers or scientists that you hire. Instead they have to walk all the way to your base from their house. They can even get permanently stranded if any of the people tubes are destroyed - but you can avoid this by briefly going into super-fast time to get them to arrive at the base instantly after you've hired them.

Transtellar will also not provide you with any transports or taxies to move goods and people between bases. Thankfully, you can get around this by manually flying vehicles and agents to and from the different bases to pick up and move gear about as you need.

Transtellar will still contract out transports to other suppliers, so any goods you buy from them will still be shipped to your base by air.

For stuff that you have recovered from a battle, you can directly unload the contents of the transport at any of the bases by landing at them before sending the transport home. The game will prompt you whether to unload the cargo or aliens there. This is handy if the ship is carrying newly recovered tech or aliens and your research facilities and containment units are not situated at the home base.

Scientists and engineers will be be stuck permanently at the base they were hired at. Agents can be housed in one base, but can live and operate at any of the bases in the city by physically moving them there.

- NKF
NKF, narrow minded fuddy duddy who refuses to let go of the past and will not accept anything newer than 1979.

#38 Space Voyager

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 11:57 AM

View PostNKF, on 17 November 2015 - 08:46 AM, said:

Ah - politics.

Nuff said!

That and real time battles are what makes Apoc stand out among the X-COMs. IMO.

#39 Nookrium

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 05:51 PM



The realtime combat is quite nice (even though I'm terrible at it), and I think I read somewhere the game was initially meant to be only that, but they added in TB at the last minute to please the old fans.  It certainly makes the game more exciting.

#40 Zombie

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 02:26 AM

View PostNeptunesNookGames, on 17 November 2015 - 05:51 PM, said:

The realtime combat is quite nice (even though I'm terrible at it), and I think I read somewhere the game was initially meant to be only that, but they added in TB at the last minute to please the old fans.  It certainly makes the game more exciting.

Everything that I read on this indicated that both RT & TB were planned from the start. Excerpt from the old Mythos website by Julian himself:

Quote

We decided right at the start of the project to include an option for real time tactical combat or turn based. This decision alone caused many of the headaches for the programmers, but the final implementation of the real time combat stands up as a truly innovative system.

My guess is that the RT aspect was worked on first, then about 3/4 through implementation they started to try and shoehorn the TB aspect in. It's functional, but just barely. Don't forget that they also had a scenario generator and multiplayer options they tried to implement, but were stripped out. All of those things going on at once and it's understandable why TB suffered. Posted Image

- Zombie

My X-COM Patch Kit For UFO Defense | Emergency XCOM Meeting spoof on YouTube




JellyfishGreen said:

Zombie: Empirical data's your only man, when formulating a research plan.
A soldier's death is never in vain if it makes the formula more plain.
A few dozen make a better case for refining that third decimal place.
They call me Zombie because I don't sleep, as I slowly struggle to climb this heap,
of corpses, data points, and trials, but from the top - I'll see for miles!




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