Migrant crisis


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#41 FullAuto

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Posted 04 January 2016 - 01:38 AM

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So in case of the government, or immigrants, or people in general, your ultimate factor in deciding about their character and trustworthiness is what they say, rather than what they actually do? Because that's the question that I was asking.

How am I to judge someone on what they do, if that information is unknown to me?  I cannot.  I must make my decisions based upon the information I have.  I cannot make decisions based on information I do not have.  This is a discussion on the internet.  Not a log of one's daily actions.

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Same way you got the right to be affronted by the words of others. You're the only one who can decide if you feel you're being treated unfairly or not.

In an ideal world, perhaps. Certainly in the real world, I cannot simply say to people "You are treating me unfairly." and that alone will make them alter their behaviour.  The real world doesn't work like that.  If I am actually being treated unfairly, there may or may not be means of redress.  If I merely feel I am being treated unfairly, my only likely means of redress will be to add it to my Tough Shit list and soldier on.  The world is a harsh place.  People will say things to you and about you that you will not like.  You cannot stop them saying it; the only thing you can control is how you act afterwards.

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What does this have to do with our discussion?

The false equivalence given to the viewpoints.  You seem to think what silencer is saying is equally as factual as what anyone else says, when, sadly, this is not the case.  Do you really want me to go through everything he has said and pick out every piece of bullshit?  I'm not sure either of us will live that long.

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Are scientific 'facts' regarding tolerance or anti-immigration being suppressed? I don't see the relevance of this other that for you to keep repeating that the other side is either lying or wrong.

Just to begin with: the video silencer posted to begin this lovely discussion is from 2008 (https://en.wikipedia...lturno_massacre).  Using my degree in time travel, I can tell you that this footage predates the 'migrant crisis' (2015).  So it's nothing to do with the migrant crisis.  It is, at best, an unwitting lie, put forward to advance a certain viewpoint.  If the 'other side' isn't lying or wrong (or both), then they're going about it in a strange way, involving nothing but digressions, evasions, whataboutery, and every tactic under the sun apart from engaging honestly in the subject at hand.

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Please point me where I said you need to agree with them. Respect and agreement are two different things.

I do not respect such views.  I tolerate them.  Tolerance and respect are two different things.

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#42 Hobbes

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Posted 04 January 2016 - 02:55 AM

View PostFullAuto, on 04 January 2016 - 01:38 AM, said:

How am I to judge someone on what they do, if that information is unknown to me?  I cannot.  I must make my decisions based upon the information I have.  I cannot make decisions based on information I do not have.  This is a discussion on the internet.  Not a log of one's daily actions.

You still haven't answered my question of whether words or actions are the better judge of a person's character. That's OK though :)

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In an ideal world, perhaps. Certainly in the real world, I cannot simply say to people "You are treating me unfairly." and that alone will make them alter their behaviour.  The real world doesn't work like that.  If I am actually being treated unfairly, there may or may not be means of redress.  If I merely feel I am being treated unfairly, my only likely means of redress will be to add it to my Tough Shit list and soldier on.  The world is a harsh place.  People will say things to you and about you that you will not like.  You cannot stop them saying it; the only thing you can control is how you act afterwards.

To me one of the major issues with the world is precisely that people don't express themselves when they feel they are being treated unfairly. Just a little clarification on my part: when you say 'feel' do you mean both conscious thoughts and body emotions? Because that's how I use that term.

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The false equivalence given to the viewpoints.  You seem to think what silencer is saying is equally as factual as what anyone else says, when, sadly, this is not the case.  Do you really want me to go through everything he has said and pick out every piece of bullshit?  I'm not sure either of us will live that long.

Judge only by the words written here and you'll get only partial views of everyone. I have my own prejudices like everyone else although they apply more to people in general than to specific groups or minorities.

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Just to begin with: the video silencer posted to begin this lovely discussion is from 2008 (https://en.wikipedia...lturno_massacre).  Using my degree in time travel, I can tell you that this footage predates the 'migrant crisis' (2015).  So it's nothing to do with the migrant crisis.  It is, at best, an unwitting lie, put forward to advance a certain viewpoint.  If the 'other side' isn't lying or wrong (or both), then they're going about it in a strange way, involving nothing but digressions, evasions, whataboutery, and every tactic under the sun apart from engaging honestly in the subject at hand.

Agreed with everything you posted there. Blatant lies should be exposed for what they are.

But, for instance, Silencer_pl mentioned gypsies a while ago and I remembered the following situation: you have a grocery store in a location where a gypsy community lives close by. Every week, and sometimes every day you have gypsy kids walking into your store and pretending to buy stuff while they try instead to steal stuff. You already complained to the police several times but even when they arrest someone the kids will be back. So you buy a frog sculpture and place it by the entry of the store because people say that gypsies don't enter places with frogs. And you complain about gypsies to every customer that walks in and tell them what happened in the past.

Now, would you call the store owner a bigot? According to my beliefs this person has attitudes about gypsies that are xenophobic/racist, but I also actually know this person, the store is in my neighbourhood where I grew up so I've experienced the situation first hand, and I've also taught gypsy kids and know a bit about them.

And another real life example: my father was born and grew up in colonial Mozambique, where it wasn't so bad as South Africa since our fascist regime said that everyone was portuguese, but in reality there was widespread discrimination and unfair treatment to the black native populations. And I heard my father sometimes say the worst things about black people, that they were monkeys, had no civilization, etc. But at the same time he had black friends, he was a doctor and would treat anyone for free if they couldn't pay, and once I even saw him smiling to a black employee at MacDonald's and saying that he was also African like them.

Again I ask the question: would you call my father a bigot? I did a few times and I also chose not to follow his example in a few matters, but when you automatically classify people as 'bigots' you're simply reducing them to a label and choosing not to understand anything about them. Which, to me, can be very close to what the real 'bigots' do.

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I do not respect such views.  I tolerate them.  Tolerance and respect are two different things.

This is what I wanted to say instead of what I did. Thanks.
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#43 FullAuto

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Posted 04 January 2016 - 03:27 AM

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You still haven't answered my question of whether words or actions are the better judge of a person's character.

It doesn't matter which is the better judge, because we're stuck with just one of those here.  None of us can say whether we are redeemed or damned by our actions.  While this forum may be rather two-dimensional, it's what we have to work with.  I take people at their word.

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To me one of the major issues with the world is precisely that people don't express themselves when they feel they are being treated unfairly. Just a little clarification on my part: when you say 'feel' do you mean both conscious thoughts and body emotions? Because that's how I use that term.

Someone may be treated very fairly, and yet still feel that they are being treated unfairly. For instance, someone can commit a crime, be arrested, tried, found guily, and put in prison.  Throughout this process, they complain how unfair it all is.  In this particular instance, it isn't unfair.  The person's feelings about the issue, and the reality of the issue, are thoroughly divorced from each other.  Sometimes, with time or hindsight or help from others, the person comes to understand what happened was actually fair, and it was their own subjective view that made them think what happened to them was unfair, even when it was the consequences of something they did.

'Feel' in this instance I would describe as a reaction, thoughts and feelings that arise in a person resulting from something else, not conscious decisions or thoughts made afterwards.

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Now, would you call the store owner a bigot?

I'd say so.  Like any word, it doesn't describe the totality of the person, just an aspect of their personality.  It's not about if they are a good or bad person, it's more often about their ignorance and ascribing negative values to what is often an enormous group of people, either based on hearsay, or bad experiences with a tiny number of that same group.

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Again I ask the question: would you call my father a bigot? I did a few times and I also chose not to follow his example in a few matters, but when you automatically classify people as 'bigots' you're simply reducing them to a label and choosing not to understand anything about them. Which, to me, can be very close to what the real 'bigots' do.

I do see what you're saying.  You believe I'm maligning someone unfairly, and in turn it's what they are doing to a group.  I would point out that I have plenty of reason for my belief, and it's not from hearsay or because I've been raised to believe all Polish people are bigots, but because of the person's words.  Whether someone is more even-handed IRL may be more likely, I know many feel the emboldening effect of internet anonymity, but also at the same time I feel that resistance to such views should be even stronger precisely because people feel it is acceptable to say such things in certain venues.  I doubt anyone goes away from their keyboard and becomes a saint, I know certainly don't, and certainly the words and actions I see, online and off, concerning the migrant crisis, has me convinced not many others become saints either.  I think things are bad enough without dishonesty gumming up the works.

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#44 Space Voyager

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Posted 04 January 2016 - 08:54 AM

View PostFullAuto, on 04 January 2016 - 01:38 AM, said:

I do not respect such views.  I tolerate them.  Tolerance and respect are two different things.

IMO tolerance is all that is required if we are to have a debate.

For instance, one can think that another's point of view is simply stupid. One can call the other stupid - or one can simply post why one thinks the view is wrong.

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Ok ok, enough of pretending smart - I've had my share of internet hostilities and probably will, too.

On the serious side, I completely agree with you, FA. Respect for everyone's opinion can not be demanded, tolerance is all that we need. Now that I think of it, tolerance is a kind of respect anyway. Just not the agreeing kind, he he he!

ANYWAY, does anybody else have a view on the bigger picture that led to the migrant crisis in the first place? And that is still developing?

#45 NoXTheRoXStaR

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Posted 04 January 2016 - 10:09 AM

You can't force respect, you earn it.

Tolerance is a measurement of fortitude or integrity.

Who really rules this world?


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#46 silencer_pl

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Posted 04 January 2016 - 10:35 AM

View PostFullAuto, on 03 January 2016 - 10:42 PM, said:

Are you sure about that?  Do you know that we currently have more than £6 trillion in national debt accruing?  Even the lower figure often given, to avoid people shitting themselves in panic, is around £1.6 trillion, which is more than 80% of our GDP.  What's Poland's?

Right, it have slipped my mind, so let me re-phrase that. Average citizen in UK is more financial secure than average citizen in Poland.

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You know absolutely zero about the Tory government.  This statement is a joke.

Can you tell that about every other government you had ?
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#47 silencer_pl

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Posted 04 January 2016 - 11:51 AM

http://www.businessi...ng-isis-2015-12

Why EU is less concerned in helping them? Why are majority of fleeing migrants are able men ?
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#48 FullAuto

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Posted 07 January 2016 - 03:41 AM

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ANYWAY, does anybody else have a view on the bigger picture that led to the migrant crisis in the first place? And that is still developing?

If we can focus on one country and get a clearer idea of what we're talking about, it makes it easier, rather than talking in general terms and allowing vagueness to creep in.  Syria is probably the top contender, with a civilian population already hugely discontent thanks to Assad's rather vicious regime which has been running for decades now.  So plenty of people wanted to leave anyway, then the Arab Spring was repressed, and then the Syrian civil war, and with large swathes of Syria being rock-bottom in population density, it means a great deal of the fighting is over, in and around population centres, which gives added impetus for populations to move. Added to this, you have the outright viciousness of sectarian conflict, with all sides quite prepared to kill civilians (depending upon who you believe), so it means if your area is captured, and you've been supporting the wrong side, you're more likely than average to get killed, combatant or not.

This has led to more than 4 million refugees.  Repatriation is unlikely given the above conditions, and even if things settled down, I don't think anyone would want to return to the loving arms of the Assad regime.  The majority of them are in limbo in Turkey, a country which really has no interest in absorbing them.  Erdogan has no interest other than using the crisis as a stick to beat the EU with.

The EU as a whole is okay with internal immigration (apart from certain political parties, like one in the UK), but isn't so keen on it coming in from outside, and I think fears have been whipped up by certain organisations, and as a result there has been resistance to accepting immigrants, not because it can't be done, but because it makes it easy for others to score political points.

From what I've read, about 1 million refugees/migrants reached Europe, and the EU just isn't prepared, in terms of logistics or mentality, to accept so many.  It's not that it can't be done, Europe is big enough to cope with it easily, it's that they're a dirty consequence showing up on our doorstep which we'd rather not acknowledge, and the lack of unity in the EU makes it all the worse.  We're still suffering and vulnerable economically, and each country also has its little foibles when it comes to refugees (e.g. certain countries in Eastern Europe are allergic to Muslims, or so they say), some have recent memories of horrific violence and are keen to keep a homogeneous population, etc.  Recent terrorist attacks feed xenophobic attitudes (it doesn't matter if the terrorists are refugees or not, they only need to be vaguely alike in one way in order to be smeared with the same brush).

I can safely say the Tories will do as little as they can get away with, despite the fact we continue to meddle in Syria and elsewhere.  If the worst comes to the worst, the Tories will reposition and manipulate the issue to be part of a "the EU doesn't tell the UK what to do while we're in charge!" narrative.

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#49 Space Voyager

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Posted 07 January 2016 - 07:24 AM

He he he, the main profit of EU in UK does seem to be the political gain of valiant fight against the EU - while keeping the UK inside...

As for Arab Spring... As much as I'd love everybody to have a democratic government (not a corporate-lobbying-law-writing as we have), the folks in the Middle East do not seem ready for such a change. So far seeding of democracy has always failed.

#50 NoXTheRoXStaR

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Posted 07 January 2016 - 08:41 AM

Well fuck it must be a shitty world to live in when you have fellow muslim countries like Turkey and Saudi Arabia rejecting their fellow men and women who have the same beliefs as they do. What does that tell you?

"Oh hey even though we believe the same thing you do, we can't accept you here, nope. Sorry, well you know it's because of ISIS or whatever fucking acronym they go by now. Sure your children are floating face down in the ocean, but hey....what can WE do?"

"Why, we have a place of sanctuary, a place that most of you can come and feel invited. We share the same religion and we love our brothers and sisters so much that we've put aside this land in order for you to stay here. Don't you mind a bit, we're one of the wealthiest nations in the world and your being here is a blessing to us, don't you mind.

Said No one.

You keep on and on with the politics and the double talk and the nonsensical factoids. Once you cut off the infectious blathering, your eyes open and you ask,


WHO REALLY RULES THIS WORLD?

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Posted 07 January 2016 - 03:35 PM

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who have the same beliefs as they do.

They don't, though. There are denominations of Muslims just like any other religion. Expecting them to help out purely on the basis of co-religionism is a mistake; it's like saying all Christians are basically the same and should always help each other out. It just doesn't happen.

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the double talk

Such as?

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nonsensical factoids.

Such as?

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WHO REALLY RULES THIS WORLD?

Do tell.

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#52 NoXTheRoXStaR

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 06:32 AM

Well by now you know in Germany about the murders that occurred. What a fucking surprise! It was a Syrian refugee. We had people here in my home state a few months back holding a parade rally trying to convince our state senator to have them move here. Fucking liberals man. Better watch out Silencer, Poland aint too far away.

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#53 silencer_pl

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 09:53 AM

Worry about what. Refugees don't want to come here. Our social care is too poor and 90% of refugees come to Europe for free money and not to work hard like any normal person.
Also don't worry our "nationalists" will take care of the "imigrant" problem.
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