A Post-Nuclear Mod for S3 (Sentinels)


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#41 Okim

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 11:56 AM

Images on previos page...

#42 Fishmachine

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 09:54 AM

View PostOkim, on 17 January 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

1. I hate and always hated progression in weapons. I doubt that in real world there is so much difference between 5.56 M4 and 5.56 Famas. They are different, that`s true (mostly in how they are made and what mechanics they are using), but both have cons and pros and in total are comparable. Even if you take other 5.56 mm guns you`ll see that they too can`t be considered weapons of the same 'tier'.

Real-life applications are not necessarily good for the game.
5.56 fired from any gun will have the same terminal ballistics. On the other hand, there are no hitpoints in real life after all... ;)

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In most circumstances the weapon`s performance is dictated by what accessories are attached to it. And that`s what i`m trying to represent in APN.

There's this one thing - what stops me from farming random encounters and getting the best accessories from the start point?
Also the other one - high damage weapons highly promote long range fighting, where the chance of getting hit is low and every succesful shot cripples enemy.

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2. What was the most boring part? I suspect odd AI behavior (standing/kneeling/standing again etc.) and a bit too many bandits to wait for? Note that the first one is beyond the reach of the modding.

Simply way too long turns. It's like the base defense mission from vanilla, though that was a bit more intensive, as the enemies rushed at you.

#43 Lt.Havoc

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 03:19 PM

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5.56 fired from any gun will have the same terminal ballistics. On the other hand, there are no hitpoints in real life after all...
This is not correct. The ballistics, muzzle velocity, range and accuracy are indeed effected by the type of weapon you fire a bullet from. A 5.56mm fired from a M16A2 will have different ballistics then if the same round is fired from a FAMAS or G36, not to mention that there are 2 types of 5.56mm ammo in military use, the M193 Ball and the SS109 who have WILDLY different ballistics.

Yes the bullet kills you regardless from what gun you fired it, but saying that the terminal ballistics are always the same fired from any weapon in the same caliber simply isnt true. There is a reason why ballistics is its own field of science after all.
"War. War never changes"

#44 Okim

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 07:23 PM

His point is that 5.56 round is equally deadly when fired from different guns regardless of their type, muzzle velocity and other characteristics. All these values have little inluence on penetration, kinetic power and damage potential. They do influence accuracy, range, recoil and other bullet characteristics which the core game clearly represents by handling, AP costs and etc.

#45 Fishmachine

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Posted 22 January 2014 - 09:44 PM

Yep, that's why I wrote about terminal ballistics (as equivalent of in-game damage).

#46 Okim

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 09:39 AM

7.7mm Machinegun is ready for action. This closes the 7.7mm weapons range (well, i`m considering the more powerful version of the bolt-action rifle or a semiautomatic one).

Posted Image

There are two versions - basic MG with bipods (and bonus for being prone) and compact LMG without stock, handle and bipods for house clearing (this one has its own new weapon subtype that acts mostly like AR - no bonus for prone, some bonus for crouching).

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I`m about to release a new version in a couple of days where you still will have the same 3 missions, but will be able to buy everything available for now after the first mission.

Costs for ammo and grenades were significantly reduced and you`ll be given 10k of credits to test whatever weapon you wish.

I`ve also reworked the weapons making them less deadlier and taking more AP to fire. SMGs are still powerful at close range, but sniper guns are not (at least those that are of semiautomatic type).

New toys will include a new set of 7.7mm assault rifles and lmgs, sawn-off 7.7mm hunting rifle (acting as a heavy pistol) and a plasma pistol with its more accurate version.

Maps were slightly reworked to make enemies appear with some less deadly weapons (but still be dangerous). This also include randoms.

Conversions now include less options for 6mm weapons. New options for 7.7mm and plasma pistol were added.

#47 tofudog

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 05:41 PM

Hello Okim, nice to see your mod is gathering momentum, so I have two great mods to anticipate now Posted Image.

edit: the following may seem harsh, so please consider:
Whatever you do with my words, when your mod is done I will play the s**t out of it and I will be happy with whatever you did. Right now is my chance to have an influence and so naturally I try to use it.

I have played the mod for a bit and I can second fishmachine´s observation: Snipers rule the battlefield - especially with the wide open spaces of desert warfare.
But that is nothing new, snipers rule the battlefield in Vanilla S3, so I can feel right at home here.

The weapon mod system was a tad confusing in the beginning and it still feels a little artificial.
What is to stop me from dismounting any mod I rigged my gun with?
Or why do I have to put in the silencer first and then the scope?

Same thing with the weapon classes - I know you want the different weapon classes to feel different, but now it is just counterintuitive to me.
Submachineguns penalized in the prone position because of parts sticking out?
Can you imagine what a soldier you handed such a thing would say?
Also the automatic weapons being restricted to short OR long bursts instead of having both available.
That feels so 19th century.
The other thing you have done with snap/aimed/careful/sniper-modes works for me and feels ok.

The following is really just a small thing for the nitpicker in me:
If it is automatic and uses pistol ammo it is an SMG, if it uses rifle ammo it is an assault-rifle.
I know, this is just real life and goes against what you want to achieve with weapon-classes, but to me it is irritating nonetheless.

Next spot of bother: The clip sizes. Please rethink them.
Some examples:
9mm ammo: Pistol:7.5 shots per inventory space. Assault rifle 10 and microSMG 15.
10mm ammo: Pistol 3.5, SMG 6.67
6mm ammo: Precision rifle: 10, assault rifle: 12.5, LMG: 25
Yes I remember the ZB 26/30 magazines from vanilla (the "ammo compactor" I call this gun) - but that is not among my top reasons to love this game :).

Dear god, by now it must seem like I want to tear your mod to tiny bits and pound you with them - nothing could be more wrong.
I am absolutely happy that one of my favorite modders (SotS1, aftershock) is having a go at my favorite game.

So lets move on to the random missions. To me what you have until now feels too small to really use tactics.
I play them as static shootouts (pretty one sided ones at that: Identify the bandit with the rifle, put a bullet in his head, mop up the others, walk home a little richer.).
Encounters like that do have their place, but you need more variety when the mod is done.

In the second mission I managed to get myself stuck:
In front of the truck, between the left light and the destroyed crate.

The missions themselves were nice little vignettes, if you leave out the third one.
If you grind yourself a full squad before this mission, you have enough things to do so the number of stupid NPCs is tolerable, but then the bandits have even less of a chance (all missions played on 100% everything for everybody).
Considering the tactical aptitude of the game´s AI the missions might profit from less allies to watch doing situps or whatever in front of the enemy.

This is a pure player view, as I did not gather enough motivation to get an XP-machine running in my den up to now.

Keep it up, this has potential.

#48 Okim

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 07:26 PM

Hi.

Let`s start from the weapon mod system. Why is it so right now? The reason is simple - each attachment is a separate weapon model AND a single block of code. So that`s why there are such limitations. Remember S2-3 engine is not suitable for that, so anything in this area has to be done via model replacement.

Eventually i`ll reduce the amount of mods per weapon making tiers much more different from one another (for example - 6mm ARs will not get combat and sniper scopes, while 7mm AR will not get any tactical lasers and red dots).


Weapon damade and some values are already reduced/adjusted in current dev version, so no need to worry here.

Clip size is so huge by default. In fact i`m comparing the models of hand grenades and clips and what i see is actually what you get in the game (1x3 clip size for 10mm SMG, 1x2 clip size for pistol clips etc.) This wont be changed.

In real life there are actually some pistol-ammo rifles. There are a lot of M4 variants that fire 5.7 ammo and etc.

Randoms will get larger depending on sector. ShelSec is a safe region where bandits have no chances to grow in size, so smashing them is not a problem at all. Other sectors will get slightly larger maps for randoms.

Have you ever seen a person firing his SMG from prone position? Even firing an Assault Rifle in prone is a problem. I have used SCAR-H replica in prone and real AKM and can tell you that without bipod firing them is rather problematic. So yes - i feel that penalising SMG and equalising prone to stand for ARs is normal.

Third mission seems to be less favourite amoung the testers so far... Probably i`ll remove the ShelSec guys from it. In fact i start to think that these ShelSec guys are pointless. I might make them part of player`s party if he hasn`t hired any mercs yet. Like getting an AR and SMG guys for the duration of the second mission, but not getting them at all if player has at least 1 merc. What do you think?

P.S. forgot about short and long bursts. In WW2 perion there were no weapons that had a fixed burst mode, so short burst in SS is just a soldiers ability to pul the SMG trigger smoothly. In modern warfare guns rarely are able to fire full and fixed burst - they either fire 2-3 shots per trigger click or go full auto until you release the triggers. This is what i`m representing in APN by giving one or another fire mode to guns. A good examples of this are USA M16A2 and A4 rifles. A2 has full auto mode, while A4 has burst fire and no full auto.

#49 Okim

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 07:40 PM

7.7mm Machinegun in action:

Posted Image

Now this gun is trully designed to be fired from prone Posted Image

#50 Fishmachine

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 09:08 PM

View PostOkim, on 23 January 2014 - 07:26 PM, said:

In real life there are actually some pistol-ammo rifles. There are a lot of M4 variants that fire 5.7 ammo and etc.

Well, that's actually a carbine, not a rifle.
Though the exact nomenclature varies highly from country to county.
In polish, we have karabin (rifle) and karabinek (carbine), where the M16 or AK are designated as carbines contrary to being rifles in the US.

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Have you ever seen a person firing his SMG from prone position? Even firing an Assault Rifle in prone is a problem. I have used SCAR-H replica in prone and real AKM and can tell you that without bipod firing them is rather problematic. So yes - i feel that penalising SMG and equalising prone to stand for ARs is normal.

Some historical sources might disagree with you: http://thompsongunir...ompson_smg1.htm
I wouldn't go as far as penalising the prone position, really. Yes, it's a problem with some SMGs with protruding mags, but not all of them.

Also, as tofudog said, sorry for constant complaints, but we want this mod to be awesome ;)

#51 Lt.Havoc

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 03:45 PM

Fishmachine your link isnt working. Also, I dont think that the P90 round (5.8x28mm) is really a pistol round when you consider that it was created to fill the gap between pistols and rifles and create a new type of weapon, the Personal Defense Weapon. The idea behind the P90 and the HK MP7 is to give forces that are not fighting in the front lines a weapon they can use to defend themselves with.

In the past, you would have given them 9mm SMGs to do the job, but the 9mm round does not have the range or stopping power to do something against soldiers in body armor or attackers armed with rifles etc. The P90 and the MP7 are both often put in the SMG category, even if the ammo fired from it gives it greater range and stopping power then a regular SMG.

As for firing prone: trained soldiers dont have a issue firing their weapon prone, it even allows for great accuracy because of the way you use your forearm and elbow to balance out the weapon, not to mention you can use "natural bi pods" in forms of stones, rocks, fallen trees, etc. Of course for a unskilled shooter it is really awkward to fire a rifle or SMG prone, specially seeing how the curved mags of most rifles and the position of the sights can make it difficult to keep a balance.
"War. War never changes"

#52 Fishmachine

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 06:38 PM

View PostLt.Havoc, on 24 January 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

Fishmachine your link isnt working.

Works for me.
Spoiler

Quote

Also, I dont think that the P90 round (5.8x28mm) is really a pistol round when you consider that it was created to fill the gap between pistols and rifles and create a new type of weapon, the Personal Defense Weapon. The idea behind the P90 and the HK MP7 is to give forces that are not fighting in the front lines a weapon they can use to defend themselves with. In the past, you would have given them 9mm SMGs to do the job, but the 9mm round does not have the range or stopping power to do something against soldiers in body armor or attackers armed with rifles etc. The P90 and the MP7 are both often put in the SMG category, even if the ammo fired from it gives it greater range and stopping power then a regular SMG.

Naaw, the 5.7x28 is really is a pistol round. A special purpose, but still.
It's designed to defeat basic body armor but it's not more effective (if not less) against unarmored targets than 9x19 Parabellum. In terms of kinetic energy it's near identical to 9x19, way lower than any intermediate round not even mentioning full-size rifle load.
It's actually quite similar to soviet WW2 era 7.62x25 Tokarev pistol round that got abandoned due to overpenetration and lack of stopping power, but now it makes a comeback in the hands of criminals fighting against body-armored police, so it's not that new of an idea, just more sophisticated. Still, not a new category of a round.

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As for firing prone: trained soldiers dont have a issue firing their weapon prone, it even allows for great accuracy because of the way you use your forearm and elbow to balance out the weapon, not to mention you can use "natural bi pods" in forms of stones, rocks, fallen trees, etc. Of course for a unskilled shooter it is really awkward to fire a rifle or SMG prone, specially seeing how the curved mags of most rifles and the position of the sights can make it difficult to keep a balance.

That's what I can concur.

#53 Okim

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 02:30 PM

Posted Image

15mm Anti-material rifle in comaprison to basic 6mm precision rifle. This is the largest man-portable gun in the mod.

#54 Okim

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 02:41 PM

In the 0.2 version (which is a bit delayed for now) you will no longer get AI-controlled ShelSec allies. Instead a player will get two random ShelSec squadmates under his control if he has just his main char in the party. These soldiers will consist of one random trooper (rifle, ar, smg or shotgun) and a random specialist (mg, sniper, grenade launcher, engineer, medic). With each block (selectable missions) you`ll get an extra trooper to your squad and all types will get better equipment.

This provides a player with two different choices - invest in his main char (skills, better and more expensive equipment, more valuable expendables like grenades etc) and get ShelSec allies or invest in his squad.

I`ve also reworked the third mission making bandits attack in waves and providing only one AI controlled ally - farm elder with 20ga double shotgun. The main objective is to protect the farmers and clear the area. The secondary objectives are to ensure that farm elder is alive and no farmer is killed (elder will reward you in any case if he is alive, but if no farmer was killed during the mission - the reward is a unique gun).

#55 Okim

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 05:27 PM

7.7mm Semi-Auto Rifle (with sniper scope):

Posted Image

This rifle is fast-to-fire  precision weapon for powerful 7.7 round. With AP ammo it can damage Power Suits (though damage is 2-7 points per hit - it is still something when you get no proper AP weapon). Rifle uses standard 7.7mm AR clips (18 rounds) and can burst fire (2 shots).

#56 Okim

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 06:17 PM

Well, i`ve made a large 'all-guns-in-one' kind of image. Take a look at weapons that are already in the mod (pic shows just one variant per gun):

http://lordsofthesta.../S3/allguns.jpg

From left to right:

6mm AR, 7mm AR and bulp-up 9mm Carbine. Plasma pistol (with combat scope), laser pistol, rifle and sniper rifle. 15mm Anti-Material Rifle (with scope).

7mm Hunting, Combat and Semi-Auto bulp-up rifle. 6mm Precision rifle and 9mm Tactical Rifle. Blast and frag grenades.

6mm and 7mm machineguns. 42mm grenade launcher and its larger version for 3 grenades.

9mm and 10mm various submachineguns. 9mm compact pistol, autopistol and 10mm pistol with tactical laser. 7mm sawn-off rifle, 10mm dual pistol and 12mm revolver. And the last set of guns consists of 10ga and 20ga shotguns.

#57 Ichthyic

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 07:21 AM

I'm playing your revision right now.  chose an engineer with focus on pistols.

is there any place that documents the info that scrolls across your screen the first time you enter the armory?

what do the modifcations do, for example.  would be good to have a text file with that info in it somewhere.

edit:  nevermind, duh, it's in the journal :P

#58 Ichthyic

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 10:20 PM

I played up through mission 3.  quite a bit tougher than the original game, but I like it.  It seems you changed how turns work, or gave everyone very high interupt rates?  that third mission took 5 minutes before I even got to move!  really gave a nice impression of a big firefight in progress.

I like the weapon customization system, though I don't see why you only get to mod your gun once?  or is there a guy later who will add/remove mods?

overall, I really like the direction you are going with this; even the global map fits right in with the theme you are building.  all the visual details look quite nice too.

my only nagging complaing so far is the frequent and egregious spelling errors and typos throughout all of the dialogue.  How about even running a simple spell checker on the text files before importing them into your database?

oh, one question: it implies there is a new bandit mission after mission 3, but the mission choices are what you would see in the vanilla game, and no new area opens up for exploration on the global map.

is mission 4 not done yet?

#59 Okim

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 05:00 AM

From the OP:

Quote

What is in this version?

- global map representing a small area of devastated world
- chapter map for the initial missions and randoms
- 3 consequent campaign missions
- two random encounter regions (with 12 slightly different maps)
- retextured and remade mercs and player units (with new equipment)
- completely new weapons (around 50 different combinations)
- completely new grenades that can be thrown very far and deal greater damage that original
- weapon customisation system available in armory
- completely new shop inventory that has everything (mostly everything) that was made for the game
- military allies present at every missions
- a couple of new hints, journal entries and dialogues
- an attempt to recreate a devastated world of the post-nuclear future

Posted Image

As for the typos - if you send me a list of corrections - i`ll be glad to fix them. Mod will need someone to run the checks once its finished (or at least updated with more content).

Mission 3 is currently undergoing some major changes to make it a bit easier and much faster than it is now (no AI-controlled allies, bandits coming in waves, critical goal to protect civilians with several reward options and etc.).

Conversions. Each option requires a huge script to run some checks and triggers AND a single weapon model with attachment. That`s why you get just 1 option per gun (2 if you upgrade a silenced weapon). There might be an option to remove atachment later, but i see no reason to do that - you`ll eventually end up with tons of 'clean' guns to modify.

Oh, btw. I`ll need to make it possible somehow to transfer at least partial familiarity value to the modded gun... Don`t know yet how to do that as i fail to find the proper functions in scripts...

#60 LucaDena

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:52 PM

Hi,
Awesome mod. Great job.
I bought S3 just for your mod, I swear.
I played all 3 missions and had much fun with it.
I just wish the AI was more smart.
I kinda miss suppression too, but I guess I am a little too used to Jagged alliance 1.13.
Thanks for making this




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