End of Game [EXTREME SPOILERS]


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#21 Alan

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 08:33 PM

View PostThe Veteran, on 19 October 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

You're so worng I can't even bring myself to debate it anymore. Let someone else come and have a go... Posted Image

*Tags in.*

So, new x-com game. I was looking forward to this. I pre-ordered it, ran through a game of UFO:EU and part way through a game of XCOM:TFTD before it was released, so I have both games quite fresh in my mind.

The difference between them, I think, can be described thusly:
In the new game, you are a non-com, a sargeant; your concerns are squad tactics. Your area of operation is small and you have your objective right infront of you; you just have to worry about putting your men in good cover and flanking your opponents.

In the old game, you were a non-com too... but you were also an officer and a soldier. You had to determine your objectives (squad one sweep that building, squad two cover the outside, squad three hunt down that last bl**dy sectoid) on a map approximately four times the size, and also manage each individual soldier for best effect (manually count TUs to see precicely how far it could move, make sure that there was enough ammo, trade off between accuracy and having a stun rod ready).

I'm used to tackling a tactical mission with three squads of four soldiers each, and a couple of floating death machines playing scout. I'm used to running three or four tactical exercises - each the size of one of the new missions - at once, and having the added layer of strategy that is involved in making them all mesh and support each other. That and having a couple of guys with blaster launchers in the back of the skyranger standing on a pile of ammo providing long range fire support.

It's kinda the same with the geoscape too. In the new game you have to worry about one base and your research/engineering speed are largely dictated too you; sure you can build more laboratories, but they're expensive and there are requirements which artificially hold you back. In the old one I can go for the "we have the technology" strategy and have entire bases devoted to research or manufacture should I so choose, and the really fun bit is that when I have these huge numbers of engineers it actually gets things made quicker rather than cheaper! (I don't get the more engineers making it cheaper thing in the new game).

I guess what I am trying to say is that the new game doesn't let you dream up your own strategies from the myriad of posibilities; it presents an artificial hard choice between two or three routes to you, and what is more gauling is that if you were allowed to perform your own proper forward planning you would have sidestepped the problem entirely. That sort of thing grates on me about as much as a plot which requires characters to hold an idiot ball (google 'tvtropes idiot ball' if curious, I won't provide a link and doom you to a wiki-walk).

Having grumbled about all of that, I did enjoy playing through the new game; there are some rough edges smoothed off and some nice new shinies. I just find that the edges are smoothed off a little too much, discarding some of the interesting bits, and the shinies seem to have been focused on at the expense of some UI elements.

So, yeah, I like the new game, I just love the original more.


Oh, and: Hi everyone, it's been a while.
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#22 The Veteran

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 09:42 PM

Much as I'd love to quote all of the above I'll just snip out the bit I need so I can continue making my point based on the thought of others and not just myself. So here it is...

View PostAlan, on 19 October 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

It presents an artificial hard choice between two or three routes to you, and what is more gauling is that if you were allowed to perform your own proper forward planning you would have sidestepped the problem entirely.

Thank you! I snipped this bit because I think it relates very well to the issue of panic control which I think is utterly broken in this game. Aside from that though I think I'd be right in saying you're backing me up here by suggesting there was possibly just a tiny bit more strategy in the original game right :P
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#23 silencer_pl

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 11:10 PM

Quote

You had to determine your objectives
- kill everything - right same as here.

Quote

on a map approximately four times the size

Not realy - maps in EU were small too - maybe except the base. But here also base and battleship are big maps.

Quote

and also manage each individual soldier for best effect
You do that here too. You have to position that sniper with squad sight in right spot, you need to move that assault in best way to use that Run & Gun efficiently. Use heavy the right way - blow up some covers - lay surpresion fire. Those supports are also needed to be put on the right spot.

Quote

manually count TUs to see precicely how far it could move
- To dash or not to dash - that is the question.

Quote

that is involved in making them all mesh and support each other.
- here you do that too you know ?

Quote

blaster launchers
- the most broken weapon in the game - alongside stupid PSI mechanic.

Quote

In the new game you have to worry about one base
But the importance on the base management here has risen 3 times more than in original.

Quote

requirements which artificially hold you back
  - Let's see - to get that Aqua plastics - you had to have A) Aqua Plastics, B) disected that Deep one.... nothings hold you back ? Or maybe to get that Avenger you had to get through Firestorm, Lightning - again nothing holding you back ?
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

#24 Alan

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 12:56 AM

View Postsilencer_pl, on 19 October 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Quote

You had to determine your objectives
- kill everything - right same as here.
*laughs* I applaud your precision quote snipping skills; you manage to cut off the exact parts which refute the comments you then go on to make.

To explain the point regarding objectives - a pair of examples:
In Ufo: Enemy Unknown
My team lands on a basic mission, and so has the objective: kill all aliens.
To the north of my sky ranger in a building. There are also buildings to the west and north west. (huh, this is a small map, only four tiles?)
These are likely locations for aliens, so to make sure I have killed them all I must check each building, so...
Objective 1: sweep and clear the building to the north
Objective 2: sweep and clear the building to the west
Objective 3: sweep and clear the building to the north west.
So now I assign one squad to each, or possibly a squad each to the first two, then have them meet up for the third. Heck, I could come up with all sorts of strategies.
Having figured this out, I now focus on the tactics of how to breach each building without getting my squads killed.

In Xcom: Enemy Unknown
My team lands on a basic mission, and so has the objective: kill all aliens.
To the north of my sky ranger in a building. There is also another building to the north of that. (We like our maps linear these days, doncher know?)
Huh, well, theres only one way to go, so: I now focus on the tactics of how to breach the building infront of me without getting my only squad killed.

View Postsilencer_pl, on 19 October 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Quote

on a map approximately four times the size
Not realy - maps in EU were small too - maybe except the base. But here also base and battleship are big maps.
The maps in U:EU were approximately 4 tiles by 4 tiles, for a total of 16 tiles. Each tile contained a feature of some sort - the sky ranger, forest, a hill, a field, buildings, a ufo. X:EU, working by the definition of one major feature per tile, works out as about 2-4 tiles per mission. It takes roughly the same number of turns to run across a tile too.

View Postsilencer_pl, on 19 October 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Quote

and also manage each individual soldier for best effect
You do that here too. You have to position that sniper with squad sight in right spot, you need to move that assault in best way to use that Run & Gun efficiently. Use heavy the right way - blow up some covers - lay surpresion fire. Those supports are also needed to be put on the right spot.
Here we are talking about two subtly different things. To elucidate: In X:EU you decide to place the sniper there, in U:EU you decide to place the sniper there, and then figure out how to get him there count the TUs of the route to see if it is possible, etc. Basicly, all the faf. For further examples, try running about in Quake (or other fps), and then try running in QWOP [http://www.foddy.net/Athletics.html].

I actually quite like that they made this easier in the new one - when I want maths & logic puzzles I can do some sudoku or find happy numbers - I just don't like that I can't have all my men shoot then fire when it suits me. (And other such irks).

Anyway, that is a matter of mechanics (I.e: Strategy is implemented by using tactics which are performed by doing some mechanics), which is besides the point - The point being that X:EU has less strategy than U:EU.

View Postsilencer_pl, on 19 October 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Quote

manually count TUs to see precicely how far it could move
- To dash or not to dash - that is the question.
See above: there is no argument that X:EU has simplified the mechanics.

View Postsilencer_pl, on 19 October 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Quote

that is involved in making them all mesh and support each other.
- here you do that too you know ?
(Emphesis added for reference)
Considering that the them refers to multiple squads of 4-6 soldiers each, no you don't do that in X:EU, especially considering you have only 4-6 soldiers total.

View Postsilencer_pl, on 19 October 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Quote

blaster launchers
- the most broken weapon in the game - alongside stupid PSI mechanic.
Yep, no argument there. Blaster launchers are the ultimate representation of "shit happens, there's nothing you can do about it". Which makes for a certain amount of schadenfreudistic glee when it's your turn to use them. Posted Image

View Postsilencer_pl, on 19 October 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

But the importance on the base management here has risen 3 times more than in original.
I don't see it, could you expand on your thoughts here?

View Postsilencer_pl, on 19 October 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Quote

requirements which artificially hold you back
  - Let's see - to get that Aqua plastics - you had to have A) Aqua Plastics, B) disected that Deep one.... nothings hold you back ? Or maybe to get that Avenger you had to get through Firestorm, Lightning - again nothing holding you back ?
*blinks* Yeah, sure TFTD was broken, and we have things to fix that, but you're complaining about there being a research tree in U:EU?
My point, which you seem to have misunderstood, was that in UFO:EU if I could somehow source the money - perhaps by selling of the hundreds of heavy plasma rifles that seemed to always accumulate - I could build as many labs and hire as many scientists as I wished, regardless of what stage of game I was at, and by doing so have a seriously fast research department. In the new game I am much more limited in the extent to which I can choose to prioritise research as I largely have to rely on the few I get given each month, or wait for the random number generator to come up with a mission with scientists as a reward.

Anyway, to restate my point lest I get off track: X-com EU has less strategic elements than UFO: EU, and I haven't seen anything sufficient to refute this.


Also: Having completed the new game I found the ending to be kinda disappointing. Why wasn't my skyranger shot out of the air? Did the aliens want it there? If so, why try to kill my squad? It doesn't make sense!

It kinda strikes me as a case of the story and internal consistency being sacrificed on the alter of financial expedience. I mean damnit man, any x-com fan knows it's Cydonia or Bust!
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#25 The Veteran

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 08:08 AM

Let's be honest, all of this stuff comes back to one thing and that is the simplification of XCOM...

We only have 6 troops? So the aliens only have 12
We only have 1 base? The aliens never build ANY
There's no base defence? Because the aliens are to thick to try and attack us
Only one interceptor per fight? Because UFOs are weeeeeeak
Only 5 engineers? Nothing interesting to build anyway
Can't get more scientists? Don't NEED more scientists

Everything in this new game has been tailor made so it is balanced, and we mustn't forget that that's a GOOD thing. Sure it's basically simplification compared to the original game but at least they haven't released a simplified AND unbalanced game, they've taken the time to ensure that the new things they've added work well enough with all the other features. For example, they haven't restricted us to a squad of 6 soldiers and then made them die super quick like they do on the original, that would make it impossible to win. Can you imagine having as many troops as the original and them all being this tough???

It's simplified and we all know that, some people are really bothered by that while others aren't so much. For me it's not a big deal as I think we all knew this wasn't going to be a clone of the original and in many ways it's a better game for it. Of course the flipside of this is that there are some changes we're not going to like (panic for example...) but additionally there are lots of things we DO like.

Still, the argument that there is more strategy in XCOM than UFO is a laughable concept and anyone who doesn't think so should really go and play through a full game of the original in the 30 hours the new game takes while losing less than 5 soldiers. Then we'll see which one requires more skill...
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#26 silencer_pl

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 08:12 AM

View PostAlan, on 20 October 2012 - 12:56 AM, said:

Objective 1: sweep and clear the building to the north
Objective 2: sweep and clear the building to the west
Objective 3: sweep and clear the building to the north west.

Which in short is:
O1: Kill aliens there
O2: Kill aliens there
O3: Kill aliens there

So X:EU

Soldier 1: Check corner there
Soldier 2: Back him up

Soldier 3: Check corner over there
Soldier 4: Climb that truck and be our guardian angel.

Soldier 5: Run to that bush.
Soldier 6: Go behind that truck.

See? Objectives.

Quote

I now focus on the tactics of how to breach each building without getting my squads killed.

Again - Objectives.


Quote

Here we are talking about two subtly different things.

Because we have 2 different games that it was stated from the beginning that they will not be similar.

Quote

The point being that X:EU has less strategy than U:EU.


Right - so I go with my Skyranger full - what strategy should I use hmmm - let's see shoot everything on sight.

In X:Eu in order to get a kill I need to plan my moves ahead, should I use this cover or that cover - what if there is alien that I don't see and he is in overwatch. Will I be flanked If I move there? Or If I flank him, will I be save from retaliation fire? Right no strategy involved.

Quote

See above: there is no argument that X:EU has simplified the mechanics.

Right see above too - very simple game that people even lose on EASY....


Quote

I don't see it, could you expand on your thoughts here?

In U:EU you just bulid some facilites and you didn't care. Here you are limited with resources, you rely on what you scavange. You need that satelite coverage but in order to do that you must build another satelite relay. The trick is - you don't have enough power. You question yourself:

A) Should I build that simple power generator or
B) Maybe I should invest little more and get that steam vent one floor below.

or other situation. You don't have enough engineers for something.

A) Should I build workshop to get new engineers?
B) Maybe I should build something else and get that engineers on next possible mission.

There is also dilema how to expand the base to use that adjacency bonus for certain buildings.

Quote

*blinks* Yeah, sure TFTD was broken, and we have things to fix that, but you're complaining about there being a research tree in U:EU?

I wouldn't say broken but different - slightly harder (though there was tech tree bugs that were ocasionally fixed by patches or comunity mods)

Quote

My point, which you seem to have misunderstood, was that in UFO:EU if I could somehow source the money - perhaps by selling of the hundreds of heavy plasma rifles that seemed to always accumulate

Making you totally independat of council, which was very strange that you could be disbanded even if you were the richest organisation in the world.

Quote

- I could build as many labs and hire as many scientists as I wished, regardless of what stage of game I was at, and by doing so have a seriously fast research department

So who is holding you back to build as many laboratories as you want ? Oh before you say money, there was a money problem in the original too. Until you researched that laser cannons.

Quote

In the new game I am much more limited in the extent to which I can choose to prioritise research as I largely have to rely on the few I get given each month.

You can build laboratories to get more scientist. But scientists here are less valuble than engineers. And to get decent research you don't need the horde of scientists. 30 is enough + if you go through the bonueses with alien interogation you should have research every few days.

I've finished my game with something close to 90 scientists.

Quote

Anyway, to restate my point lest I get off track: X-com EU has less strategic elements than UFO: EU, and I haven't seen anything sufficient to refute this.


Actually it's the other way round.

Quote

Also: Having completed the new game I found the ending to be kinda disappointing. Why wasn't my skyranger
shot out of the air? Did the aliens want it there? If so, why try to kill my squad? It doesn't make sense!

Because aliens wanted the "New One" to come to them so they could "persuade" him to join their forces.
They wanted to try to kill to make sure that it is their goal they are seeking. Strong Body and Strong mind.
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#27 The Veteran

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 08:25 AM

View Postsilencer_pl, on 20 October 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

In X:Eu in order to get a kill I need to plan my moves ahead, should I use this cover or that cover - what if there is alien that I don't see and he is in overwatch. Will I be flanked If I move there? Or If I flank him, will I be save from retaliation fire? Right no strategy involved.

So just like the original then, but with super soldiers, weaker enemies and cover mechanics...

View Postsilencer_pl, on 20 October 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

You can build laboratories to get more scientist. But scientists here are less valuble than engineers. And to get decent research you don't need the horde of scientists. 30 is enough + if you go through the bonueses with alien interogation you should have research every few days.

Building labs doesn't give you more scientists, best way to get them is building satellites and waiting for the council report. Not that you need them anyway, there's nothing much worth researching.

I'm not going to get bogged down in this topic. If you want to think that XCOM is a strategy game of the same calibre as the original then you do that but you couldn't be more wrong and the only person you're convincing is yourself...
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#28 Sorbicol

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 09:29 AM

Building labs (and workshops) does give you more scientists (or engineers), at least is does on normal. Not checked in classic as I've not been able to build any.

There's little point debating with you veteran, seeing as you are so unwilling to listen to other people's points of view. I don't think you really understand what strategy means either, and to claim the new game is somehow less tactically astute as the original clearly shows you struggle with that concept too.

Considering you appear to hate every thing about this game I'm kind of surprised you're still playing it.

For what it is worth I do think panic management is a little unbalanced - it's a little bit too easy to increase it compared to decreasing it, certainly in classic. Some of that stems from the Random Number Generator god, which when he has decided he's going to kick you in the nuts, well he really kicks you in the nuts! He has a name in Blood bowl, he's called nuffle. Clearly his domain is spreading :-/

#29 Pete

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 09:38 AM

Can't everyone just agree to disagree? Because I'm going to get annoyed with the next one of you who isn't polite to the rest.

Everyone has their own points of view. Everyone sees the world and this game in a slightly different way.

Deal with it, kiss and make up.

Whether it be the original or the new game it's just a game.
I want to see the inside of the UFO in my avatar.

#30 Alan

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 09:57 AM

*sighs* Alright Pete. We're sorry.

I think the problem is that we are connoisseurs in the xkcd sense - we'd have strong and differing opinions about images of some guy eating a sandwich given enough time. While both games are good they are good in different ways, and we get annoyed when people don't see that difference. But yes, agree to disagree.

On a lighter note:

View PostSorbicol, on 20 October 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

Some of that stems from the Random Number Generator god, which when he has decided he's going to kick you in the nuts, well he really kicks you in the nuts! He has a name in Blood bowl, he's called nuffle. Clearly his domain is spreading :-/
*chuckle* Blood bowl! That takes me back. Hey, Sorbicol, do you reckon the dev's were Games Workshop fans? ;)
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#31 silencer_pl

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 10:32 AM

Quote

but with super soldiers, weaker enemies

Super soilders - even colonel can panic, miss, be mind controled, be flanked and critted for 15 dmg. They are not immortal while in sadomaizer in original you could die from 1 hit or survive 100.

Weaker enemies - If they are weak - how come many strugle to not to lose soldiers ?
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#32 Pete

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 10:36 AM

Oh, and hi Alan :)
I want to see the inside of the UFO in my avatar.

#33 The Veteran

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 10:45 AM

View PostSorbicol, on 20 October 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

Considering you appear to hate every thing about this game I'm kind of surprised you're still playing it.

Awesome you're wrong again :P Whatever ;)
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#34 Sorbicol

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 02:07 PM

Ah didn't mean to offend, I'm quite happy for other people to disagree with me ;)

Alan, Cyanide's PC version of Bloodbowl frequently gets criticised for seeming non random random number generation (you fail a pass at 95% while you opponent keeps completing 5% chance passes, that type of thing. A lot of people forget that Random number generation also means random distribution too, nothing wrong with hitting a bunch of 1s when the computer is rolling 6s, but it doesn't half make the game look like it's screwing you over!

It's the problem with RNG systems, most people don't really understand what they are all about.

#35 Alan

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 06:22 PM

Sorbicol, I hadn't really noticed that, probably because when I was playing the PC version of Blood Bowl I was lost in nostalgia for the original table top version. I completely get what you were saying about random distributions though; I work with stats alot and know that you get clusters even in uniform random distributions. After all, the uniformity is talking about the generating distribution, not the arbitrary samples you take from it.

Despite that, I will now be blaming nuffle whenever shit happens while playing x-com... such as the unfortunately close pair of chryssalids which ate half my squad just now in my current ironman game. *grumble grumble* ;)
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#36 Sorbicol

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 08:30 PM

Yeah chryssalids on classic are just an utter nightmare. I just go trigger happy with my heavies now, any collateral damage can be happy they didn't become zombies

#37 NoXTheRoXStaR

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 08:37 PM

I noticed that at the end. Before? After? the credits, the game shows you four pages of statistics. I got 50 items researched, did anyone get higher? Or is there anymore?
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#38 silencer_pl

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 08:41 PM

Did you get the achievement ? If not there is more.

View PostSorbicol, on 20 October 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Yeah chryssalids on classic are just an utter nightmare. I just go trigger happy with my heavies now, any collateral damage can be happy they didn't become zombies

If you are afraid of Chrysalids then what you say about Sectopods ? If you let them fire they realy create havoc :D
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#39 Sorbicol

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 06:57 AM

I've not got far enough in classic to reach Sectopods!

#40 Pete

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 08:55 AM

Sectopods have some fun attacks that I kept on forgetting about and getting lots of people badly injured on Normal. I don't fancy my chances on Classic.

The fact that there are multiple of them in the very last mission worries me for a Classic playthrough ;)
I want to see the inside of the UFO in my avatar.




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