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A Post-Nuclear Mod for S3 (Sentinels)


Okim

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1. There are no tiers in the mod, so weapons are somewhat balanced compared to each other. At least that was the idea. And guns should be deadly - they are guns after all.

 

2. Well, then you should not play the third mission :)

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1. There are no tiers in the mod, so weapons are somewhat balanced compared to each other. At least that was the idea. And guns should be deadly - they are guns after all.

2. Well, then you should not play the third mission smile.png

 

1. I don't know if that's the best idea, actually. Weapon tiers nicely compose with class progress scheme in S3.

2. Got bored and turned it off in fourth round ;)

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1. I hate and always hated progression in weapons. I doubt that in real world there is so much difference between 5.56 M4 and 5.56 Famas. They are different, that`s true (mostly in how they are made and what mechanics they are using), but both have cons and pros and in total are comparable. Even if you take other 5.56 mm guns you`ll see that they too can`t be considered weapons of the same 'tier'.

 

In most circumstances the weapon`s performance is dictated by what accessories are attached to it. And that`s what i`m trying to represent in APN.

 

2. What was the most boring part? I suspect odd AI behavior (standing/kneeling/standing again etc.) and a bit too many bandits to wait for? Note that the first one is beyond the reach of the modding.

 

-------

 

Have you seen any randoms? I need to know if they are too small/easy/difficult/whatever.

 

Have you made any weapon conversions?

 

Hired any mercs?

 

What about the maps?

 

I need some more specific feedback.

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Finished creating a model for plasma pistol (and its CS version). This pistol also uses a new model for plasma bolt effect.

 

https://lordsofthestars.com/other/S3/plasma.jpg

 

Plasma weapons fire devastating superheated bolts that not only blast everything they hit, but also damage everything is a small area of impact. These are the most powerful weapons in the mod, but also the most rare and expensive to use (6 shots cost around 1000 credits).

 

Against Power Suits a single direct hit can burn almost a half of its armour and even wound the operator (plasma guns deal damage on direct hit AND area damage, meaning that direct hit is almost a confirmed kill). Compared to lasers all plasma guns have a significant disadvantage - they are much less accurate and have less operational ranges.

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Haven't played much, maybe 1,5-2hrs "wasted" with this mod. Got no random encounters (haven't even seen any - maybe their probability is too low?).

As of weapon conversions I've only repaired the hunting rifle from first mission, but haven't been using it, as there were no ammo in the store for it yet.

Due to low income and horrendous costs of ammo and mods only hired one merc - cheapest scout. But he (she?) didn't do much in the mission, as my main sniper simply murders anything at a range, while going for close encounters is simply not worth the risk.

Maps are not bad, but with these overpowered weapons anything beyond staying back and sniping is simply not effective.

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On normal you deal +33% more damage and receive -33% less. The same goes for AP. Enemies on normal are 1 level lower than you and etc.

 

This may explain a bit your complains about weapons being overpowered, especially sniper rifles.

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Need your opinion on this subject: what is more effective - short burst or long burst?

 

I`m asking this because i`m thinking to actually introduce weapon tier of sorts. And current ShelSec 6mm and 10mm guns with their long bursts seem to be quite deadly. On the other hand these bursts miss much at long and even med range, so its somewhat balanced.

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A set of 7.7mm Assault Rifles:

 

https://lordsofthestars.com/other/S3/7mm-ars.jpg

 

Basic, Combat Scope, Sniper Scope, Extended Mag, EM + CS, EM + SN.

 

These rifles are 'heavy hitters', but take more AP to shot and fire less shots during bursts. Ah, and no silencers, tactical lasers and red dot scopes.

 

Clip size is just 18 shots, so extended mags (+36 shots) is a must have upgrade for the guns. Or you can use them as designated marsman rifles to fire single shots.

 

 

And this is a concept of 7.7 LMG:

 

https://lordsofthestars.com/other/S3/7mm-lmg.jpg

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1. I hate and always hated progression in weapons. I doubt that in real world there is so much difference between 5.56 M4 and 5.56 Famas. They are different, that`s true (mostly in how they are made and what mechanics they are using), but both have cons and pros and in total are comparable. Even if you take other 5.56 mm guns you`ll see that they too can`t be considered weapons of the same 'tier'.

 

Real-life applications are not necessarily good for the game.

5.56 fired from any gun will have the same terminal ballistics. On the other hand, there are no hitpoints in real life after all... ;)

 

In most circumstances the weapon`s performance is dictated by what accessories are attached to it. And that`s what i`m trying to represent in APN.

 

There's this one thing - what stops me from farming random encounters and getting the best accessories from the start point?

Also the other one - high damage weapons highly promote long range fighting, where the chance of getting hit is low and every succesful shot cripples enemy.

 

2. What was the most boring part? I suspect odd AI behavior (standing/kneeling/standing again etc.) and a bit too many bandits to wait for? Note that the first one is beyond the reach of the modding.

 

Simply way too long turns. It's like the base defense mission from vanilla, though that was a bit more intensive, as the enemies rushed at you.

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5.56 fired from any gun will have the same terminal ballistics. On the other hand, there are no hitpoints in real life after all...

This is not correct. The ballistics, muzzle velocity, range and accuracy are indeed effected by the type of weapon you fire a bullet from. A 5.56mm fired from a M16A2 will have different ballistics then if the same round is fired from a FAMAS or G36, not to mention that there are 2 types of 5.56mm ammo in military use, the M193 Ball and the SS109 who have WILDLY different ballistics.

 

Yes the bullet kills you regardless from what gun you fired it, but saying that the terminal ballistics are always the same fired from any weapon in the same caliber simply isnt true. There is a reason why ballistics is its own field of science after all.

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His point is that 5.56 round is equally deadly when fired from different guns regardless of their type, muzzle velocity and other characteristics. All these values have little inluence on penetration, kinetic power and damage potential. They do influence accuracy, range, recoil and other bullet characteristics which the core game clearly represents by handling, AP costs and etc.
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7.7mm Machinegun is ready for action. This closes the 7.7mm weapons range (well, i`m considering the more powerful version of the bolt-action rifle or a semiautomatic one).

 

https://lordsofthestars.com/other/S3/7lmg.jpg

 

There are two versions - basic MG with bipods (and bonus for being prone) and compact LMG without stock, handle and bipods for house clearing (this one has its own new weapon subtype that acts mostly like AR - no bonus for prone, some bonus for crouching).

 

------

 

I`m about to release a new version in a couple of days where you still will have the same 3 missions, but will be able to buy everything available for now after the first mission.

 

Costs for ammo and grenades were significantly reduced and you`ll be given 10k of credits to test whatever weapon you wish.

 

I`ve also reworked the weapons making them less deadlier and taking more AP to fire. SMGs are still powerful at close range, but sniper guns are not (at least those that are of semiautomatic type).

 

New toys will include a new set of 7.7mm assault rifles and lmgs, sawn-off 7.7mm hunting rifle (acting as a heavy pistol) and a plasma pistol with its more accurate version.

 

Maps were slightly reworked to make enemies appear with some less deadly weapons (but still be dangerous). This also include randoms.

 

Conversions now include less options for 6mm weapons. New options for 7.7mm and plasma pistol were added.

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Hello Okim, nice to see your mod is gathering momentum, so I have two great mods to anticipate now smile.png.

 

edit: the following may seem harsh, so please consider:

Whatever you do with my words, when your mod is done I will play the s**t out of it and I will be happy with whatever you did. Right now is my chance to have an influence and so naturally I try to use it.

 

I have played the mod for a bit and I can second fishmachine´s observation: Snipers rule the battlefield - especially with the wide open spaces of desert warfare.

But that is nothing new, snipers rule the battlefield in Vanilla S3, so I can feel right at home here.

 

The weapon mod system was a tad confusing in the beginning and it still feels a little artificial.

What is to stop me from dismounting any mod I rigged my gun with?

Or why do I have to put in the silencer first and then the scope?

 

Same thing with the weapon classes - I know you want the different weapon classes to feel different, but now it is just counterintuitive to me.

Submachineguns penalized in the prone position because of parts sticking out?

Can you imagine what a soldier you handed such a thing would say?

Also the automatic weapons being restricted to short OR long bursts instead of having both available.

That feels so 19th century.

The other thing you have done with snap/aimed/careful/sniper-modes works for me and feels ok.

 

The following is really just a small thing for the nitpicker in me:

If it is automatic and uses pistol ammo it is an SMG, if it uses rifle ammo it is an assault-rifle.

I know, this is just real life and goes against what you want to achieve with weapon-classes, but to me it is irritating nonetheless.

 

Next spot of bother: The clip sizes. Please rethink them.

Some examples:

9mm ammo: Pistol:7.5 shots per inventory space. Assault rifle 10 and microSMG 15.

10mm ammo: Pistol 3.5, SMG 6.67

6mm ammo: Precision rifle: 10, assault rifle: 12.5, LMG: 25

Yes I remember the ZB 26/30 magazines from vanilla (the "ammo compactor" I call this gun) - but that is not among my top reasons to love this game :).

 

Dear god, by now it must seem like I want to tear your mod to tiny bits and pound you with them - nothing could be more wrong.

I am absolutely happy that one of my favorite modders (SotS1, aftershock) is having a go at my favorite game.

 

So lets move on to the random missions. To me what you have until now feels too small to really use tactics.

I play them as static shootouts (pretty one sided ones at that: Identify the bandit with the rifle, put a bullet in his head, mop up the others, walk home a little richer.).

Encounters like that do have their place, but you need more variety when the mod is done.

 

In the second mission I managed to get myself stuck:

In front of the truck, between the left light and the destroyed crate.

 

The missions themselves were nice little vignettes, if you leave out the third one.

If you grind yourself a full squad before this mission, you have enough things to do so the number of stupid NPCs is tolerable, but then the bandits have even less of a chance (all missions played on 100% everything for everybody).

Considering the tactical aptitude of the game´s AI the missions might profit from less allies to watch doing situps or whatever in front of the enemy.

 

This is a pure player view, as I did not gather enough motivation to get an XP-machine running in my den up to now.

 

Keep it up, this has potential.

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Hi.

 

Let`s start from the weapon mod system. Why is it so right now? The reason is simple - each attachment is a separate weapon model AND a single block of code. So that`s why there are such limitations. Remember S2-3 engine is not suitable for that, so anything in this area has to be done via model replacement.

 

Eventually i`ll reduce the amount of mods per weapon making tiers much more different from one another (for example - 6mm ARs will not get combat and sniper scopes, while 7mm AR will not get any tactical lasers and red dots).

 

 

Weapon damade and some values are already reduced/adjusted in current dev version, so no need to worry here.

 

Clip size is so huge by default. In fact i`m comparing the models of hand grenades and clips and what i see is actually what you get in the game (1x3 clip size for 10mm SMG, 1x2 clip size for pistol clips etc.) This wont be changed.

 

In real life there are actually some pistol-ammo rifles. There are a lot of M4 variants that fire 5.7 ammo and etc.

 

Randoms will get larger depending on sector. ShelSec is a safe region where bandits have no chances to grow in size, so smashing them is not a problem at all. Other sectors will get slightly larger maps for randoms.

 

Have you ever seen a person firing his SMG from prone position? Even firing an Assault Rifle in prone is a problem. I have used SCAR-H replica in prone and real AKM and can tell you that without bipod firing them is rather problematic. So yes - i feel that penalising SMG and equalising prone to stand for ARs is normal.

 

Third mission seems to be less favourite amoung the testers so far... Probably i`ll remove the ShelSec guys from it. In fact i start to think that these ShelSec guys are pointless. I might make them part of player`s party if he hasn`t hired any mercs yet. Like getting an AR and SMG guys for the duration of the second mission, but not getting them at all if player has at least 1 merc. What do you think?

 

P.S. forgot about short and long bursts. In WW2 perion there were no weapons that had a fixed burst mode, so short burst in SS is just a soldiers ability to pul the SMG trigger smoothly. In modern warfare guns rarely are able to fire full and fixed burst - they either fire 2-3 shots per trigger click or go full auto until you release the triggers. This is what i`m representing in APN by giving one or another fire mode to guns. A good examples of this are USA M16A2 and A4 rifles. A2 has full auto mode, while A4 has burst fire and no full auto.

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In real life there are actually some pistol-ammo rifles. There are a lot of M4 variants that fire 5.7 ammo and etc.

 

Well, that's actually a carbine, not a rifle.

Though the exact nomenclature varies highly from country to county.

In polish, we have karabin (rifle) and karabinek (carbine), where the M16 or AK are designated as carbines contrary to being rifles in the US.

 

Have you ever seen a person firing his SMG from prone position? Even firing an Assault Rifle in prone is a problem. I have used SCAR-H replica in prone and real AKM and can tell you that without bipod firing them is rather problematic. So yes - i feel that penalising SMG and equalising prone to stand for ARs is normal.

 

Some historical sources might disagree with you: https://thompsongunireland.com/british_trials_with_thompson_smg1.htm

I wouldn't go as far as penalising the prone position, really. Yes, it's a problem with some SMGs with protruding mags, but not all of them.

 

Also, as tofudog said, sorry for constant complaints, but we want this mod to be awesome ;)

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